On Delusion

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What makes it difficult is the incoherence of your explanation.

Following is an example:

You said:
[b]You ask me. This is your mind.
I answer. This is my mind. If I had no mind, how could I reply to you? If you had no mind, how could you ask?

Here you speak as if my mind and your mind BOTH exist.

You follow that with:
If you think th ...[text shortened]... mind, go ahead and name it.

There's a lot of double-talk in your attempt at explanation.[/b]

Edit: “What makes it difficult is the incoherence of your explanation.”

Methinks what makes it difficult is on the one hand the fact that you ignore a specific context, and on the other hand the fact that I use the traditional ways of tackling the “delusion” that are understood in full by trained Madhyamikas, Dzogchen and Ch’an disciples. No problem; we can go as far as you want;


Edit: “There's a lot of double-talk in your attempt at explanation.”

You get no double-talk from me. The “double-talk” thingy is a product of your false evaluation.
Of course both minds exist in the physical world (Floating World). However the physical world and everything in it, our minds included, are empty products of the mind that is experiencing the reality phenomenally and conventionally instead of experiencing the cosmic reality (that triggers the Floating World into being), which is holistic and non-differentiated.
The “mind that exists and does not exist” is not some kind of “double talk” that I invented in my attempt at explanation, but a koan that points towards to the Middle Way. “Middle Way” is a conventional description of a system that allows the individual to conceive that the so called “objective physical world” is a product of a specific mode of the individual’s mind that perceives the cosmic reality in a distorted (delusional) way because of ignorance (of the cosmic reality).

If you want to go further towards the Void, you have for starters to find out on your own what the Middle Way is, then to create a specific context so that you understand the level of awareness that you have to apply as regards specific observers within specific slivers of reality, then to decide if you want to proceed or not, and finally, in case you choose to proceed, to find out the best way for your case
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Originally posted by black beetle
Edit: “What makes it difficult is the incoherence of your explanation.”

Methinks what makes it difficult is on the one hand the fact that you ignore a specific context, and on the other hand the fact that I use the traditional ways of tackling the “delusion” that are understood in full by trained Madhyamikas, Dzogchen and Ch’an disciples. No problem; ...[text shortened]... or not, and finally, in case you choose to proceed, to find out the best way for your case
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So far as I can recall, you didn't place the statements within their given contexts. So far as that goes, I don't recall you even having mentioned "the cosmic reality". If that's the case, then why claim that I "ignored the specific context[s]"?

So what exactly is the "cosmic reality"?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
So far as I can recall, you didn't place the statements within their given contexts. So far as that goes, I don't recall you even having mentioned "the cosmic reality". If that's the case, then why claim that I "ignored the specific context[s]"?

So what exactly is the "cosmic reality"?

Edit: “So far as I can recall, you didn't place the statements within their given contexts.”

Reading the OP I thought that you wanted to discuss specific aspects of the delusion (as delusion is understood by other philosophical and religious systems). I had the feeling that you knew a thing or two as regards the core buddhist systems, because delusion is a main topic at all the buddhist schools. Mea culpa🙂

Cosmic reality is Tathagata. Master Wong Kew Kit says that the cosmic reality is infinite, eternal, immanent, omnipresent and omniscient, impartial and non-differentiated, meaning that everything there is, is a holistic unity. I have no better way to explain Tathagata
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Originally posted by black beetle
Edit: “So far as I can recall, you didn't place the statements within their given contexts.”

Reading the OP I thought that you wanted to discuss specific aspects of the delusion (as delusion is understood by other philosophical and religious systems). I had the feeling that you knew a thing or two as regards the core buddhist systems, because delusio ...[text shortened]... ng that everything there is, is a holistic unity. I have no better way to explain Tathagata
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I posted this earlier. It should help you in understanding where I'm coming from:

I was looking to engage in discussions about "delusion" with practitioners of various spiritual traditions rather than read canned defintions from various websites. Quite frankly, I've yet to find any definitions that wouldn't seemingly require the practioner to delude himself into assimilating views that are outside of reality. I was hoping that a discussion might shed some light on why that may not be true.

As to buddhism, there are a lot of different schools and I get the impression that the specifics vary regarding "delusion" (but that may be just because the terminology seems to differ).

I thought about trying to paraphrase what you've said thus far, but I don't have a good enough picture to be able to see how it all fits together. Could you paint me a picture of the basic infrastructure upon which everything hangs?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I posted this earlier. It should help you in understanding where I'm coming from:
[quote] I was looking to engage in discussions about "delusion" with practitioners of various spiritual traditions rather than read canned defintions from various websites. Quite frankly, I've yet to find any definitions that wouldn't seemingly require the practioner to del ...[text shortened]... . Could you paint me a picture of the basic infrastructure upon which everything hangs?

They do not vary; the phenomenal variance depends on the level of the conceptual and non-conceptual awareness of the practitioner, on the specific slivers of reality that are observed and evaluated from each school, and on the specific points of attention that must be established so that the practitioner can permanently break free from the dualist approach (that is causing delusions).
For example, Ch'an uses no words and promotes the direct experience of a trained disciple; whilst Madhyamaka adopts deconstructive reasonings (a Madhyamika treats all the concepts and the imputations as if the entities they denoted were inherently existent, and then demonstrates the impossible consequences that follow) so that the trained practitioner gains in full intellectual certainty concerning Emptiness.


Edit: "Could you paint me a picture of the basic infrastructure upon which everything hangs?"

All the budhist systems are soteriological and demonstrate how the disciple can be liberated from his delusions and act as the master of his mind, instead of being a slave of his mind. Then the disciple treats reality as a unique, holistic entity that envelopes everything by means of various interconnected causal fields.
According to Bhodhidharma (Ch'an school), the basic shape of the method is the following:
There are many ways an individual has at his disposal so that he can meet Dharma, but mainly there are two: the inner truth and the behaviour (pure condact). Entering the Dharma via inner truth is to perceive and understand the essence through the understanding of the teachings. Hopefully with this procedure the disciple experiences on his own the fact that all the beings have the same nature, which is not seen previously from the beginning by him because he is obscured by his attachment to the delusion that is grounded on false evaluations. Overcoming the delusion by means of meditation and experiencing directly that there is no inherently existing self, and also experiencing that the nature of the mortals and of the so called wise sentient beings is the same, the disciple holds this new point of attention regardless of the beliefs that can be found in the so called “holy books” and the various scriptures, maintaining a mental state that doesn’t contradict the inner truth. So the disciple enters the Dharma without motion, “sitting quietly and doing nothing”. This is known as “entering the Dharma through inner truth”.
Furthermore, entering the Dharma by means of pure conduct is “to conduct the four actions that include all the other actions”. These four actions are: to endure unfairness; to cope with the conditions; to desire no thing; to live according to Dharma.

All the above is merely a mapping and not some kind of orthodoxy. Other practitioners will notice, for example, that the liberation from both the "ego" and the Dharma is essential for the Mahayianists and the Vajrayanists, whilst the Theravadins consider that the dharmas are real and non phenomenal. They may also well explain that the Mahayianists and the Vajrayianists have the opinion that the "ego" (self, I) and all the other entities do not exist at the level of the Cosmic Reality (because CR is non-differentiated), but they exist (and they are empty) in the phenomenal world (Floating World).
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Originally posted by black beetle
They do not vary; the phenomenal variance depends on the level of the conceptual and non-conceptual awareness of the practitioner, on the specific slivers of reality that are observed and evaluated from each school, and on the specific points of attention that must be established so that the practitioner can permanently break free from the dualist appro ...[text shortened]... ted), but they exist (and they are empty) in the phenomenal world (Floating World).
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You apparently don't realize this is a deceptive teaching from Satan the devil.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You apparently don't realize this is a deceptive teaching from Satan the devil.

I don't realize this is a deceptive teaching from Satan the devil.
Why do you think it is?
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Originally posted by black beetle
I don't realize this is a deceptive teaching from Satan the devil.
Why do you think it is?
😵

According to some Buddhist sects, a long procession of bodhisattvas as incarnations of Buddha has appeared on the earth to bestow knowledge upon mankind. In some sects a future savior, the last Buddha, called Maitreya, "Son of Love," is expected to appear from heaven and bring great spiritual blessings. This is a false Christ.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Buddhism/satanic.htm

Originally posted by RJHinds
According to some Buddhist sects, a long procession of bodhisattvas as incarnations of Buddha has appeared on the earth to bestow knowledge upon mankind. In some sects a future savior, the last Buddha, called Maitreya, "Son of Love," is expected to appear from heaven and bring great spiritual blessings. This is a false Christ.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Buddhism/satanic.htm

Nonsense. "Maitreya" is neither Jesus, nor false Jesus, nor both, nor neither. It is the pure holistic mindstream (buddha) of Infinite Love & Compassion as it is transmitted from "Tusita", therefere it is used acording to the tradition as a symbolism of the emergence of Love & Compassion in the mind of the human beings "by the time when the height of the human beings will be limited to the height of a nowdays human being's arm". "Maitreya" is a metaphor for the function of Love & Compassion;
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The Buddha did not perform any miracles to prove that his teachings originated from heaven nor did the Buddha fulfill any recorded ancient prophecies. Yet the God of heaven performed many miraculous events through Jesus the Christ in front of multitudes of eyewitnesses, including the miracles of fulfilled Bible prophecies which were written hundreds of years before Jesus was born.

Furthermore, the written records of New Testament Scripture were circulated in the same nation and during the same time period where the miraculous events actually occurred. Had the facts been otherwise, the miraculous claims for Christianity would have been proved false.

No other world religion but Christianity can compare with the miraculous evidence of Bible prophecies fulfilled. Nor can any other religion point to such a vast array of historical evidence to prove its miraculous origin.

Bible Scholars have counted over 300 Messianic Prophecies which were fulfilled in the life and ministry of Jesus. Some of these are:

OLD TESTAMENT PROPHECY - - - - NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLMENT

Genesis 3:15 - Seed of Woman - Matthew 1:20
Isaiah 7:14 - Virgin Birth - Matthew 1:18
Genesis 49:10 - From the Tribe of Judah - Luke 3:23,33
Micah 5:2 - Born at Bethlehem - Matthew 2:1
Psalm 72:10 - Presented with Gifts - Matthew 2:1,11
Jeremiah 31:15 - King Herod kills Children - Matthew 2:16
Isaiah 7:14 - Called Immanuel [God with us] - Matthew 1:23
Isaiah 40:3 - Preceded by a Prophet - Matthew 3:1,2
Isaiah 35:5,6 - Ministry of Great Miracles - Matthew 9:25
Zechariah 9:9 - To enter Jerusalem on a Donkey - Luke 19:35-37
Psalm 16:10 - Resurrected after Death - Acts 2:31
Psalm 68:18 - Bodily Ascension to Heaven - Acts 1:9
Psalm 41:9 - Betrayed by a Friend - John 13:21
Zechariah 11:12 - Sold for 30 Pieces of Silver - Matthew 26:15
Zechariah 11:13 - 30 Pieces of Silver Thrown into Temple - Matthew 27:5
Zechariah 13:7 - Forsaken by His Disciples - Matthew 26:56
Psalm 35:11 - Accused by False Witnesses - Matthew 26:59,60
Isaiah 53:7 - Silent Before Accusers - Matthew 27:12
Isaiah 53:5 - Wounded and Bruised - Matthew 27:26
Isaiah 50:6 - Smitten and Spit Upon - Matthew 27:30
Psalm 22:7,8 - Mocked - Matthew 27:31
Psalm 22:16 - Hands and Feet Pierced - John 20:25
Isaiah 53:12 - Crucified with Thieves - Matthew 27:38
Psalm 22:18 - Garments Parted and Lots Cast for His clothing - John 19:23,24
Psalm 22:1 - His Forsaken Cry - Matthew 27:46
Numbers 9:12 - Bones Not Broken - John 19:33-36
Zechariah 12:10 - Side Pierced - John 19:34
Amos 8:9 - Darkness Over the Land - Matthew 27:45
Isaiah 53:9 - Buried in Rich Man’s Tomb - Matthew 27:57-60

The empty tomb, Shroud of Turin, and the Sudarium of Oviedo are still available as proof of his crucifixion and resurrection.

Originally posted by black beetle
They do not vary; the phenomenal variance depends on the level of the conceptual and non-conceptual awareness of the practitioner, on the specific slivers of reality that are observed and evaluated from each school, and on the specific points of attention that must be established so that the practitioner can permanently break free from the dualist appro ...[text shortened]... ted), but they exist (and they are empty) in the phenomenal world (Floating World).
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Not what I was looking for, but I probably could have phrased my request better.

Let me try a different way.

Is the following a high level view of what you term 'delusion'?

However the physical world and everything in it, our minds included, are empty products of the mind that is experiencing the reality phenomenally and conventionally instead of experiencing the cosmic reality (that triggers the Floating World into being), which is holistic and non-differentiated.

If so, can you flesh out a low level view?

Originally posted by black beetle
Nonsense. "Maitreya" is neither Jesus, nor false Jesus, nor both, nor neither. It is the pure holistic mindstream (buddha) of Infinite Love & Compassion as it is transmitted from "Tusita", therefere it is used acording to the tradition as a symbolism of the emergence of Love & Compassion in the mind of the human beings "by the time when the height of th ...[text shortened]... uman being's arm". "Maitreya" is a metaphor for the function of Love & Compassion;
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I said, "According to some Buddhist sects", that does not mean "all." Satan is always making changes to deceive newbies like you. I don't have to study these new ideas, because I know it is from the same source, "the father of lies", because it is nonsense masquerading as truth. 😏

Originally posted by black beetle
Nonsense. "Maitreya" is neither Jesus, nor false Jesus, nor both, nor neither. It is the pure holistic mindstream (buddha) of Infinite Love & Compassion as it is transmitted from "Tusita", therefere it is used acording to the tradition as a symbolism of the emergence of Love & Compassion in the mind of the human beings "by the time when the height of th ...[text shortened]... uman being's arm". "Maitreya" is a metaphor for the function of Love & Compassion;
😵

The Maitreya is a metaphor, eh?

What would be the worldwide response of Buddhists if someone were to appear on the world stage with solutions to most of the world's problems and then three years later proclaims himself the Maitreya?

Would they laugh at him, or would they worship him?

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Buddha did not perform any miracles to prove that his teachings originated from heaven nor did the Buddha fulfill any recorded ancient prophecies. Yet the God of heaven performed many miraculous events through Jesus the Christ in front of multitudes of eyewitnesses, including the miracles of fulfilled Bible prophecies which were written hundreds of years ...[text shortened]... in, and the Sudarium of Oviedo are still available as proof of his crucifixion and resurrection.

Enter the atheist denial of all of this.

Originally posted by Suzianne
The Maitreya is a metaphor, eh?

What would be the worldwide response of Buddhists if someone were to appear on the world stage with solutions to most of the world's problems and then three years later proclaims himself the Maitreya?

Would they laugh at him, or would they worship him?

It is a metaphor.
If anyone would proclaim himself the Maitreya, I would lough at him😵