24 Oct 12
Originally posted by JS357I think delusion may be the wrong word, there are many religious rituals, the aim of which is to render the adherent open to visions, most non adherents would label these visions delusional.
Yes. I don't know of any spiritual traditions that speak of "delusion", except those that speak of delusion of those people who are not adherents of that spiritual tradition. Can you provide examples of these "Many spiritual traditions [that] speak of "delusion"? Maybe that would help.
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24 Oct 12
Originally posted by kevcvs57Might it refer to the Eleusinian Mysteries?
I think delusion may be the wrong word, there are many religious rituals, the aim of which is to render the adherent open to visions, most non adherents would label these visions delusional.
http://io9.com/5883394/the-eleusinian-mysteries-the-1-fraternity-in-greco+roman-society
24 Oct 12
Originally posted by FMFlol. I reread what you originally wrote and now understand your original intent. That said, it's hard to imagine the source of their delusion.
I don't believe there is any immortality for anyone. Sorry if my offhand post earlier made it unclear [and on reflection, I think it did].
24 Oct 12
Originally posted by JS357Following is but one example:
Yes. I don't know of any spiritual traditions that speak of "delusion", except those that speak of delusion of those people who are not adherents of that spiritual tradition. Can you provide examples of these "Many spiritual traditions [that] speak of "delusion"? Maybe that would help.
Delusions are states of mind which, when they arise within our mental continuum, leave us disturbed, confused and unhappy.
Therefore, those states of mind which delude or afflict us are called 'delusions' or 'afflictive emotions'
We all know that on days when we are in a good mood, when the whole world seems to be smiling at us, we can accept predicaments or bad news more easily than if our mind is already upset, frustrated or troubled, when the slightest incident might cause us to explode with negative emotions. If we make a habit of being governed by these negative emotions, we will lose our appetite, sleep badly, perhaps become ill, and lose a few years of our life as a result. So mental calmness is very important.
Dalai Lama
From Beyond Dogma - The Challenge of the Modern World
Pasted from <http://www.sodahead.com/living/afflictions/question-2207987/>
If you're truly interested, other examples are easy enough to find.
24 Oct 12
Originally posted by RJHindsThe passage you cited seems to indicate God as being the source of the strong delusion that would have them believe the lie. This seems contrary to other parts of the Bible and contrary with the concept of God being omnibenevolent.
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong [b]delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all ...[text shortened]... s something that appears to be the truth, but is actually a lie, like evolution for the atheist.[/b]
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24 Oct 12
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI flashed on Alan Watts having talked in this vein.
Following is but one example:
Delusions are states of mind which, when they arise within our mental continuum, leave us disturbed, confused and unhappy.
Therefore, those states of mind which delude or afflict us are called 'delusions' or 'afflictive emotions'
We all know that on days when we are in a good mood, when the whole world seems to b ...[text shortened]... 207987/>
If you're truly interested, other examples are easy enough to find.
" If you think you have a lower self or an ego to get rid of and then you fight against it—nothing strengthens the delusion that it exists more than that. So this tremendous schizophrenia in human beings of thinking that they are rider and horse, soul in command of body, or will in command of passions—wrestling with them—all that kind of split thinking simply aggravates the problem and we get more and more split. "
http://deoxy.org/media/Watts/Higher_Self
Illusion is spoken of by Watts in the same vein.
Western religions, which have a different, good battling evil narrative, also speak of being deluded. There are many google hits on the words "we are deluded by our" and Christ, that appear to be Christian sermons.
24 Oct 12
Originally posted by JS357Yes, it's quite prevalent, especially if one lumps in the references to "illusion" that for all intents and purposes seem to indicate delusion.
I flashed on Alan Watts having talked in this vein.
" If you think you have a lower self or an ego to get rid of and then you fight against it—nothing strengthens the delusion that it exists more than that. So this tremendous schizophrenia in human beings of thinking that they are rider and horse, soul in command of body, or will in command of passions—wres ...[text shortened]... e hits on the words "we are deluded by our" and Christ, that appear to be Christian sermons.
So back to the intent of this thread:
I was looking to engage in discussions about "delusion" with practitioners of various spiritual traditions rather than read canned defintions from various websites. Quite frankly, I've yet to find any definitions that wouldn't seemingly require the practioner to delude himself into assimilating views that are outside of reality. I was hoping that a discussion might shed some light on why that may not be true.
Hopefully someone wiling and able to participate in such a discussion will come across this thread.
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24 Oct 12
Originally posted by kevcvs57So there are two strains of delusion here. One refers to delusions that the tradition says we need to recognize and escape from, because they are what hold us back in some way, and the other tradition refers to delusions that we enter into temporarily, because they are what frees us from what holds us back. The latter can make use of meditation or trances or certain drugs that put us into a sort of deluded state, from which we return to our usual state having been transformed. Of course they can be combined.
Yeah that sort of thing, if they included Woodstock, they could have extended it's history by at least 1,500 yrs. 🙂
24 Oct 12
2 edits
".....like evolution for the atheist."
What are you talking about RJ?
The last time I looked the Church accepted evolution saying it was the natural
will of God. It was/is all part of God's plan.
Christianity are always doing this anytime something new happens along they cannot refuted.
They adopt it and say it was God's way.
Just like they did when it was proven the Earth did infact revolve around the Sun.
Though it took a while for the Catholic Church to come around to this new idea.
Pope John Paul II finally conceeded on behalf of the Church saying it was so in 1992.
This will be same Catholic Church that is holding up a piece of 13th century cloth
claiming it is the buriel shroud of Jesus.
Hi ThinkOfOne
"It would be helpful if you could cite a few examples illustrating some common "delusions".
Well there is two.
RJ.
I'm not an athiest in the full sense of the word. I don't believe in a God but
I do in Jesus. There was such a person, not the son of god though.
He spotted what was happening, the church making money from faith.
He did not die for our sins, that does not make any sense at all.
How can being born become a sin?
But his execution does make sense when you look at what he was doing,
he was turning people away from organised religion.
He died to keep the money rolling in, he died so you would have a church to give money too.
See if he ever comes back, like a lot of people think he will (that's delusion No.3.)
there is going to be hell to pay when he finds out how the bible has used him and the
number of people that have been killed in his name.
Not to mention of course the amount of money that has been made from him.
The annoying thing is, he was so close, it nearly happened.
24 Oct 12
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThe passage says God sends (provides the means) for the delusion and Satan does the works with the cooperation of the individual. Rednecks like me don't use such big words as you do, so I had to look up the word and perhaps this link will help you understand the meaning of that big word and why there is no contradiction as it seems to you.
The passage you cited seems to indicate God as being the source of the strong delusion that would have them believe the lie. This seems contrary to other parts of the Bible and contrary with the concept of God being omnibenevolent.
http://atheism.about.com/od/whatisgod/a/omnibenevolent.htm
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!
25 Oct 12
Originally posted by greenpawn34Hi Gp34,
".....like evolution for the atheist."
What are you talking about RJ?
The last time I looked the Church accepted evolution saying it was the natural
will of God. It was/is all part of God's plan.
Christianity are always doing this anytime something new happens along they cannot refuted.
They adopt it and say it was God's way.
Just like they ...[text shortened]... has been made from him.
The annoying thing is, he was so close, it nearly happened.
Well, it seems like you took that out of context. I was looking for examples of what a given spiritual tradition would consider "delusions". You've provided examples of what you consider "delusions" within a given spiritual tradition.
25 Oct 12
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsReread the following:
The passage says God sends (provides the means) for the delusion and Satan does the works with the cooperation of the individual. Rednecks like me don't use such big words as you do, so I had to look up the word and perhaps this link will help you understand the meaning of that big word and why there is no contradiction as it seems to you.
http://atheism ...[text shortened]... bout.com/od/whatisgod/a/omnibenevolent.htm
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!
"And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
Clearly it is God sending the strong delusion.
I understand the meaning of "omnibenevolent" and understood it at the time that I wrote that. You on the other hand not only didn't understand it, you were completely unfamiliar with the word. That you believe the link you provided indicates that there is no contradiction shows that you still don't understand it. You need to reread the link. If you still don't understand it after having done so, I'll be happy to explain the parts that you're struggling with.
