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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyGB, not for a moment was I suggesting that god was involved in coercion of free will. It is the fact that god KNOWS what choices man will make that makes freewill an illusion, if one accepts this concept of a god.
God's Omniscience knows all the knowable as well as all that could have happened had the free will of any man chosen differently in time. Yet God does not coerce the free will volitional choices you or I or any other human being make. His Attributes of Justice [He's fair] and His Righteousness [His perfect standard] together equal His Divine Integrity. ...[text shortened]... tons which would function mechanically on command. He did create rational beings with free will.
Originally posted by OdBodOB, if a parent "KNOWS" for a fact that a married son or daughter and their spouse have exhibited an irresponsible tendency to spend well beyond their means when it comes to their shared fascination and love of electronic equipment in the recent past [which often resulted in requests for personal loans for rent and groceries] and a brand new state of the art upgraded piece of equipment hits the market, is the "freewill" of that married couple" to make the purchase anyway "an illusion"?
GB, not for a moment was I suggesting that god was involved in coercion of free will. It is the fact that god KNOWS what choices man will make that makes freewill an illusion, if one accepts this concept of a god.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadI think true(for the want of a better word) free will result in unpredictable outcomes and is a function of the probabilistic nature of quantum theory. That said, it could of course be argued that free will is an emerging quality of interactive complexity, it too then being an illusion. But at least this interpretation might allow the outcome of this quality not to be predetermined, as it seems to be with a religious/omnipotent god perspective, which I feel limits our potential.
That depends very much on your definition of 'free will'.
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbySaid parent might know their spending history but he/she does not *know* anything about future with 100% certainty. On the other hand, it is claimed that God does know, infallibly, the actions of all humans at all points in time
OB, if a parent "KNOWS" for a fact that a married son or daughter and their spouse have exhibited an irresponsible tendency to spend well beyond their means when it comes to their shared fascination and love of electronic equipment in the recent past [which often resulted in requests for personal loans for rent and groceries] and a brand new state of th ...[text shortened]... the market, is the "freewill" of that married couple" to make the purchase anyway "an illusion"?
Your analogy fails.
Originally posted by AgergThankyou Agerg. GB I cannot improve on that response to your post.
Said parent might know their spending history but he/she does not *know* anything about future with 100% certainty. On the other hand, it is claimed that God does know, infallibly, the actions of all humans at all points in time
Your analogy fails.
Originally posted by AgergYes. He knows. No. He does not interfere. Reason: Unfettered human volition/freewill is required to resolve the prehistoric angelic conflict. It's virtually impossible to reason out of a position without having reasoned your way in. Continue?
Said parent might know their spending history but he/she does not *know* anything about future with 100% certainty. On the other hand, it is claimed that God does know, infallibly, the actions of all humans at all points in time
Your analogy fails.
Originally posted by OdBodSo essentially free will is the random action of an entity. I am not sure why anyone would want that sort of free will, but I do agree that the ability to reliably predict the future, rules out randomness. Although it could still be the case that the actions are to all intents and purposes are still random, they are just preset.
I think true(for the want of a better word) free will result in unpredictable outcomes and is a function of the probabilistic nature of quantum theory.
That said, it could of course be argued that free will is an emerging quality of interactive complexity, it too then being an illusion.
In what way is that an illusion?
But at least this interpretation might allow the outcome of this quality not to be predetermined, as it seems to be with a religious/omnipotent god perspective, which I feel limits our potential.
Would it bother you to have your potential limited? Why do you care about having the ability to act randomly.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadI believe the biblical definition of free will is the ability to choose whatever one wishes even though there may be beneficial or adverse consequences. 😏
There are a number of definitions. I don't own any of them. When I use the phrase, I will try to specify which definition I am using.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyHi GB, again you seem to be missing my point. You fully acknowledge that god knows exactly what is going to happen, it actually does not matter as to why or if there is interference, you simply cannot have free will if your decisions and there outcomes are PRECISELY preset and known.
Yes. He knows. No. He does not interfere. Reason: Unfettered human volition/freewill is required to resolve the prehistoric angelic conflict. It's virtually impossible to reason out of a position without having reasoned your way in. Continue?
Originally posted by twhiteheadHi twhitehead, I would suggest free will has a random component. As you know, studies have shown that decision making in the brain has often been made before we think we have actually made them. Biochemical process at the molecular level are tied into quantum theory (eg photosynthesis). It therefore follows that there is a probabilistic aspect to our decision making process that is beyond our control. I agree that this is not a comfortable notion. With reference to your last point, the need to to fully exploit our potential is tied to survival and hard wired into us through the process of evolution.
So essentially free will is the random action of an entity. I am not sure why anyone would want that sort of free will, but I do agree that the ability to reliably predict the future, rules out randomness. Although it could still be the case that the actions are to all intents and purposes are still random, they are just preset.
[b]That said, it could ...[text shortened]... er you to have your potential limited? Why do you care about having the ability to act randomly.