Pascal's Wager Revisited

Originally posted by OdBod
Hi twhitehead, I would suggest free will has a random component. As you know, studies have shown that decision making in the brain has often been made before we think we have actually made them. Biochemical process at the molecular level are tied into quantum theory (eg photosynthesis). It therefore follows that there is a probabilistic aspect to our decision ...[text shortened]... ploit our potential is tied to survival and hard wired into us through the process of evolution.

Adding in random roll of the dice into decision making does not give rise to any
form of free will.

An element of 'randomness' may stop the outcome being predictable.

But free will implies and requires an element of choice.

And having your decisions made by a dice roll gives no more choice than if they
are fully predetermined.

Originally posted by OdBod
Hi twhitehead, I would suggest free will has a random component.

I am fully aware that the human brains thought processes involve random components. But is that random component what you are terming 'free will'? If you made a decision because of something you learned in the past, and there was no randomness in your decision, would that not be a free will decision?
Another popular definition for 'free will' is where the entity is not unduly influenced by immediate external factors when making its decision, with randomness being irrelevant.

The majority of people haven't really given the subject much thought and don't really have a very specific definition.

With reference to your last point, the need to to fully exploit our potential is tied to survival and hard wired into us through the process of evolution.
I can understand the desire to reach our full potential. I am less inclined to see the ability to act randomly as fulfilling our full potential. If it turns out that the universe is fully deterministic, I won't feel any less fulfilled.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Adding in random roll of the dice into decision making does not give rise to any
form of free will.

An element of 'randomness' may stop the outcome being predictable.

But free will implies and requires an element of choice.

And having your decisions made by a dice roll gives no more choice than if they
are fully predetermined.

I agree, in a previous post I suggested free will may be an illusion and this respect offers no more choice than predeterminism. I was questioning the validity of predeterminism in a proberberlisic universe.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am fully aware that the human brains thought processes involve random components. But is that random component what you are terming 'free will'? If you made a decision because of something you learned in the past, and there was no randomness in your decision, would that not be a free will decision?
Another popular definition for 'free will' is where th ...[text shortened]... tial. If it turns out that the universe is fully deterministic, I won't feel any less fulfilled.

I think the decision making process is a reaction to external stimuli arising from the current state of the brain function (including random effects due to the probabilistic nature of quantum theory). As such, the process involves many components. I agree that a definition of free will is very difficult and may prove to be meaningless.With reference to your last paragraph ,I never suggested we act randomly, only that there is a random aspect to our decision making process. Yes the question of fulfilment stands aside from this discussion, I personally prefer a few pints .🙂

Originally posted by googlefudge
But free will implies and requires an element of choice.

And having your decisions made by a dice roll gives no more choice than if they
are fully predetermined.

Can you expand on that? What do you mean by 'an element of choice'? You later imply that this 'element of choice' cannot be random nor fully causal. Is there a third option? I thought the two were essentially compliments of each other.

Originally posted by OdBod
I agree, in a previous post I suggested free will may be an illusion .....

So what is this illusion you see? Or is it so illusive that you cannot define it?

Originally posted by OdBod
Hi GB, again you seem to be missing my point. You fully acknowledge that god knows exactly what is going to happen, it actually does not matter as to why or if there is interference, you simply cannot have free will if your decisions and there outcomes are PRECISELY preset and known.

They're not "preset", OB. God simply knows all the knowable in human history before the fact; He respects human freewill.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Adding in random roll of the dice into decision making does not give rise to any
form of free will.

An element of 'randomness' may stop the outcome being predictable.

But free will implies and requires an element of choice.

And having your decisions made by a dice roll gives no more choice than if they
are fully predetermined.

Human beings were never designed to be equal; we are born unequal [genetically, geographically, socially, financially, intellectually and by any other applicable metric]. Even in the United States of America's Constitution, we are equal only in the eyes of the law [which in practice isn't always the case due to wealth and influence]. More importantly, freewill further insures inequality. The more decisions people in any country or in the global aggregate make the more unequal they become. Some people make wise decisions that create future options for even greater decisions; while other people make wrong decisions that preclude or close down future options. No two people on Red Hot Pawn or in the world are equal.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Human beings were never designed to be equal; we are born unequal [genetically, geographically, socially, financially, intellectually and by any other applicable metric]. Even in the United States of America's Constitution, we are equal only in the eyes of the law [which in practice isn't always the case due to wealth and influence]. More importantly, [ ...[text shortened]... preclude or close down future options. No two people on Red Hot Pawn or in the world are equal.

Wow.

What a load of self absorbed meaningless waffle.

You are far and away the biggest windbag I have ever known.


NOTHING you just said was in any possible way relevant to the discussion at hand.

I recommend you remove your head from your ass, and actually read what people
write.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So what is this illusion you see? Or is it so illusive that you cannot define it?

I cannot see it, merely feel it, and yes it is so complex as to defy a correct definition. Could you come up with a definition of free will that works in all situations?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
They're not "preset", OB. God simply knows all the knowable in human history before the fact; He respects human freewill.

You are missing the point.
If the future is knowable, then it is not random and therefore is preset.
Either God does not actually know what will happen in the future, or the future is, in fact, preset. You can't have both.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
They're not "preset", OB. God simply knows all the knowable in human history before the fact; He respects human freewill.

GB your reply contradicts itself.

Originally posted by OdBod
GB your reply contradicts itself.

What if all of the multitudinous volumes of every decision OdBod and Grampy Bobby would ever make during their entire lifetimes were individual irregular pieces of gigantic jigsaw puzzles placed in enormous invisible celestial boxes before either of them was born and yet God's Omniscience knew in eternity past what the finished shapes of these two unique completed puzzles would be, including their next freewill chess move decisions on Red Hot Pawn? He does. And He didn't interfere.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You are missing the point.
If the future is knowable, then it is not random and therefore is preset.
Either God does not actually know what will happen in the future, or the future is, in fact, preset. You can't have both.

It's "knowable" to God though you and I haven't made all of the freewill decisions we will make today or in our lifetimes.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Wow.

What a load of self absorbed meaningless waffle.

You are far and away the biggest windbag I have ever known.


NOTHING you just said was in any possible way relevant to the discussion at hand.

I recommend you remove your head from your ass, and actually read what people
write.

Thank you.