Pascal's Wager Revisited

Originally posted by OdBod
It seems to me that given that biblical prophecy( cock crowing three times etc) suggests that this god has used this ability. This being the case would suggest there is no free will in this Universe .Or, god cherry picks its periods of knowledge in this Universe , I think this amounts to self deception.

I think I see what you are trying to get at. Biblical prophesy implies prescience, it does not of itself imply omniscience or omnipotence. Omniscience is, as I remember claimed elsewhere in the Bible, omnipotence is plausible given that the claim is that God created the entire universe. However, your point seems to depend on God's omniscience being elective.

You are relying on the claim that infallible prescience is necessarily in logical conflict with free will. However, we have not been able to demonstrate a logical contradiction.

If God chooses not to remember certain events then does that amount to self-deception? I don't think so. For deception to occur there need to be some facts about something which someone is mislead over. Suppose the thing, an event E say, is the thing which I am going to deceive someone over - I want them to think ¬E, that the event was different in some way and was in fact F. They already know E, but I can use magic to make them forget. This then means that for all they know E could have happened or may not have. Their state of knowledge is now Ev¬E in other words the event may or may not have happened. Ev¬E is unconditionally true, they do not believe anything false yet. There is no particular reason for them to start thinking F until I tell them F is true and E is not.

Transferring this to God, if God chooses to forget E then his knowledge of the world is Ev¬E, he has no reason to believe F. So if God chose to forget E he would not know anything that was false. So I don't think you can construct a charge of self-deception.

Originally posted by DeepThought
1) That's a clear statement of belief, but hardly proof that libertarian free will exists.
2) The importance of the decision to be made does not affect whether we have free will or not. Although, typically the more important the decision is the more external constraints there are on it.
3) Granted, but I don't think adding more terms will add clarity to the discussion.

DeepThought, have you read any of the three of seven parts posted to Thread 162611 (Page 15)?

Originally posted by DeepThought
I think I see what you are trying to get at. Biblical prophesy implies prescience, it does not of itself imply omniscience or omnipotence. Omniscience is, as I remember claimed elsewhere in the Bible, omnipotence is plausible given that the claim is that God created the entire universe. However, your point seems to depend on God's omniscience being el ...[text shortened]... ot know anything that was false. So I don't think you can construct a charge of self-deception.

Would you not say that at the point this god chooses to forget, it decides at that moment to self deceive?

Originally posted by OdBod
Would you not say that at the point this god chooses to forget, it decides at that moment to self deceive?

No, deception involves false knowledge. Forgetting involves losing knowledge. If God decides to forget about something then he has not gained any false knowledge and is therefore not deceived.

Originally posted by DeepThought
No, deception involves false knowledge. Forgetting involves losing knowledge. If God decides to forget about something then he has not gained any false knowledge and is therefore not deceived.

If a god is "all-knowing" and decides to forget something he is no
longer "all-knowing" BUT would believe he was, thus deceiving himself.

Originally posted by DeepThought
No, deception involves false knowledge. Forgetting involves losing knowledge. If God decides to forget about something then he has not gained any false knowledge and is therefore not deceived.

Self deception can also be achieved by ignoring knowledge.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
If a god is "all-knowing" and decides to forget something he is no
longer "all-knowing" BUT would believe he was, thus deceiving himself.

Why would a god who was omniscient, but decided to forget some facts, necessarily forget that during the process he had ceased to be omniscient? The process of forgetting a given fact does not entail lack of awareness that some information has been lost.

Originally posted by OdBod
Self deception can also be achieved by ignoring knowledge.

This depends. If a witness in court tells the truth, but not the whole truth, said witness could deceive the court through the omission. With God the situation is different. A predicate attached to God is infallibility. Now, if God's infallibility is contingent on his omniscience then you are right. However, there is no reason for it to be. God has not given up his omnipotence and therefore has the power to maintain his infallibility. My claim is that God's omnipotence is a sufficient condition for infallibility and an infallible agent cannot be deceived.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Why would a god who was omniscient, but decided to forget some facts, necessarily forget that during the process he had ceased to be omniscient? The process of forgetting a given fact does not entail lack of awareness that some information has been lost.

Forgetting anything is a loss of information.
Even if what is forgotten was false.

For instance if I say to you the sky is red and you choose to forget it.
When your wife asks you "What did that idiot Wolfie say?" you have to "Dunno"
You will have lost information.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Forgetting anything is a loss of information.
Even if what is forgotten was false.

For instance if I say to you the sky is red and you choose to forget it.
When your wife asks you "What did that idiot Wolfie say?" you have to "Dunno"
You will have lost information.

Agreed, but that does not entail that I'd forget that you told me something, it would only entail that I'd forgotten what it was.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Forgetting anything is a loss of information.
Even if what is forgotten was false.

For instance if I say to you the sky is red and you choose to forget it.
When your wife asks you "What did that idiot Wolfie say?" you have to "Dunno"
You will have lost information.

Besides, if it's sunset "The sky is red" could be true.