1. Joined
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    16 Sep '14 15:43
    Originally posted by C Hess
    Conditional freedom of religion is no freedom at all.
    there are conditions to everything. it's called living in a society and not anarchy.

    you get to be free, on the condition you obey the laws. if you don't you get thrown in jail. that alone doesn't mean you don't have freedom.
  2. Standard memberDeepThought
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    16 Sep '14 18:021 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    he is talking about the principle.

    so if turbans and hijabs are allowed in the driver license photo, so should pastafarian hats, whatever those may be. the actual intent behind a declared religion cannot be demonstrated and shouldn't be an issue.


    however, pastafarianism isn't a recognized religion yet as far as i know, so this conversation is useless.
    Do they wear their hats all the time? An orthodox Sikh will be wearing their turban while driving, the same is true of Muslim women who wear hijabs, so it increases their identifiability in the picture if they are wearing it. I assume that Pastafarians will not wear their hat all the time, and so it's not appropriate for them to be wearing them in the driver's licence photo.

    Of course if they really want to be treated as a religion then they could be compelled to be...

    I agree with your post immediately above this one, with the caveat that there is some mechanism for me to influence what the law is, i.e. a parliament.
  3. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    16 Sep '14 21:48
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    are sikhs allowed to wear turbans on their driver's license?
    are orthodox jews allowed to wear their curly bangs?


    "try to look normal"
    what is normal? do you get to decide?
    Good post.

    If we get rid of the least normal who is left?

    Reminds me of an obnoxious character at our chess club. He
    complained that one chap (who was exceedingly bad) should
    not be playing chess. My response was that no chess club should
    have a weakest player and we should root them out each month.
  4. Subscriberjosephw
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    17 Sep '14 07:28
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Don't you read the news? ISIS has declared a Caliphate state, which is a religiously controlled government and BOKO Haram wants the same.

    This is PURELY religious war grabbing territory to make a new state with a state religion. Pure and simple, no need to bring in thuggery or whatever, these dudes THINK they are religious therefore they ARE religious. I ...[text shortened]... er religious icons like the Buddha's recently blown up. In their minds they are being religious.
    "This is PURELY religious war grabbing territory to make a new state with a state religion."

    You're trying to have your cake and eat it too! If evolution is the driving force behind what motivates our actions, i.e. survival, then claims of religious right is an illusion.

    Those terrorists are out for power and control, and they kill in the name of their God, who doesn't exist by the way.
  5. Subscriberjosephw
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    17 Sep '14 07:39
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    are sikhs allowed to wear turbans on their driver's license?
    are orthodox jews allowed to wear their curly bangs?


    "try to look normal"
    what is normal? do you get to decide?
    "what is normal? do you get to decide?"

    What you really mean is, "is there a normal"?

    Wearing a colander on one's head for a picture on a drivers license is weird.

    And no, I don't get to decide what is normal. Evolution apparently doesn't have a normal. Anything goes right? Have you been down to New Orleans lately? Why don't we turn the prison population loose on the general public? Hey! There's normal for you! Let's just go all the way and suspend the law and allow for all sorts of "normal" behavior to run rampant in society.

    After all, what's normal, and who gets to decide? Mindlessness is normal according to your standard.
  6. Subscribersonhouse
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    17 Sep '14 11:131 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    [b]"what is normal? do you get to decide?"

    What you really mean is, "is there a normal"?

    Wearing a colander on one's head for a picture on a drivers license is weird.

    And no, I don't get to decide what is normal. Evolution apparently doesn't have a normal. Anything goes right? Have you been down to New Orleans lately? Why don't we turn the pris ...[text shortened]... r all, what's normal, and who gets to decide? Mindlessness is normal according to your standard.[/b]
    So is Tracy Chapman normal? Is Elvis normal? Is GW Bush Jr. normal? What criteria do YOU use to establish a normal person? Do they have to work in Detroit on auto manufacturing? Do they have to be a short order cook at the local diner? Was Einstein normal? Loretta Lynn? Who are these Normal's you talk about?

    I myself have played music on nationally syndicated TV, worked as Ex Pat in the Bahama's, Thailand, Israel, crawled inside the passage in the giant pyramid at Giza, went to school in Anchorage Alaska, played folk music at dozens of folk festivals, am I 'normal'?
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    17 Sep '14 12:49
    Originally posted by josephw
    [b]"what is normal? do you get to decide?"

    What you really mean is, "is there a normal"?

    Wearing a colander on one's head for a picture on a drivers license is weird.

    And no, I don't get to decide what is normal. Evolution apparently doesn't have a normal. Anything goes right? Have you been down to New Orleans lately? Why don't we turn the pris ...[text shortened]... r all, what's normal, and who gets to decide? Mindlessness is normal according to your standard.[/b]
    except that i never advocated letting criminals go free. i never advocated breaking the laws as you do when you misrepresent my position to absurd proportion so that would be easier for you to attack.
  8. Standard memberSoothfast
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    18 Sep '14 03:21
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    So, are you saying that atheism is now a religious belief?

    All "Pastafarians" are atheist. There are no people in that group who actually believe in a pasta "god". So there is NO "religious belief". It's all just another way of making fun of religion. I don't see why atheists get a pass for disrespect while racist groups are held accountable. I gues ...[text shortened]... ple who actually DO experience actual oppression and bigotry and minimizes what they go through.
    Forget pasta. When it comes to outrageously daft, blinkered, looney-tunes-coo-coo-ca-ca craziness, there's really no need to look beyond the old-time Abrahamic religions:
    Jewish couple sue neighbours over automatic light

    A Jewish couple are suing their neighbours in a block of flats because they say an automatic security light breaks a religious prohibition.

    Dr Dena Coleman, the head teacher of a Jewish orthodox school, and her husband, Gordon, claim they are kept prisoner in their holiday flat on the Sabbath because when they leave it they trigger the light in the communal hallway.

    Orthodox Jews hold that the biblical prohibition of lighting a fire on the Sabbath also embraces the switching on of electric lights. The Sabbath begins at sunset on Friday and lasts until Saturday night.

    The Colemans claim their human rights are being breached and are suing the flats' management company, which includes their neighbours, for failing to accommodate their religion.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5550497/Jewish-couple-sue-neighbours-over-automatic-light.html
  9. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Sep '14 06:13
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Yeah ... you know the thing - talking to imaginery creatures and asking for favours.
    I guess my question is why on earth would an atheist be concerned with that?
  10. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Sep '14 06:15
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    Is too! 😲

    Maybe it seems childish to you, but those touched by his noodly appendage know that they were missing something in their lives before that happened.
    See? All this Pastafarianism is just a good excuse to blaspheme the real God by parodying Christians.
  11. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Sep '14 06:19
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    he is talking about the principle.

    so if turbans and hijabs are allowed in the driver license photo, so should pastafarian hats, whatever those may be. the actual intent behind a declared religion cannot be demonstrated and shouldn't be an issue.


    however, pastafarianism isn't a recognized religion yet as far as i know, so this conversation is useless.
    Yeah, and I'm saying the principle is hogwash. All this is for is another excuse to make fun of Christians.

    (Yeah, yeah, add in muslims, sikhs, hindus and what-have-you. But it's Christians these people have their big red bull's eyes painted on.)
  12. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Sep '14 06:25
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    Atheism is a religious belief, albeit a negative one.

    Pastafarianism is clearly not a religious belief in any genuine sense. Being told not to wear pirate clothing to school is not oppression. People are either involved to make some kind of point or for fun. I haven't followed the antics particularly, but I really don't think it's worth your while ...[text shortened]... fundamentalist which I don't think is right and actually pretty rude, what denomination are you?
    Since you asked, I'll answer.

    Episcopalian. It's the US version of Anglican, although from what I've been able to ascertain, it's a little more liberal than Anglicanism.

    Yeah, fundamentalist. No, I don't think so. I'm actually to the left of center. I'm pretty sure the fundamentalists (of any religion) are pretty much right of center. But I guess to the atheists, we're ALL fundamentalists. Maybe we look the same to them.
  13. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Sep '14 06:35
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    Atheism is a religious belief, albeit a negative one.

    no it's not. let's not bend words to the point they lose all meaning


    at most you can say that some atheists preach atheism with religious fervor but even that might be pushing it.


    "Pastafarianism is clearly not a religious belief in any genuine sense. "
    except for the fact that it isn't re ...[text shortened]... you think they view it as what it really is: a sect with the express purpose of making profit.
    It is true that there have been many, many evil men posing as belonging to some religion through the ages. And it is also true that most, if not all, religions have their "wishy-washy" members who do not really adhere to some or most of the tenets of their religion.

    But for a religion to be an actual religion, there must be *some* who believe in their tenets, and as far as I've been able to figure out, NO one actually believes there is a pasta "god". I'm sorry, but for a concept to be a religion, there must be "believers". Show me someone (anyone) who says they actually, truly believe in the FSM, and I'll show you a liar. They're all atheists putting us on to make a point. I happen to think their point is blasphemous, but I guess that's just me.
  14. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Sep '14 06:37
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    You are going to be vastly disappointed in that end of the world scenario. There also is not going to be a deity coming down to fix all our boo boo's.

    The sooner the human race gets that through there collective heads, the sooner the race will begin to mature. Instead it is mired down in religious wars all over the planet right now. The only traditional ...[text shortened]... at is more thuggery at each others throats. Other than that, all the present wars are religious.
    You really need to add another couple of stanzas to your magnum opus, there. Every time I hear this argument, it's the same old thing.
  15. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Sep '14 06:42
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    are sikhs allowed to wear turbans on their driver's license?
    are orthodox jews allowed to wear their curly bangs?


    "try to look normal"
    what is normal? do you get to decide?
    Look, I don't care *where* you're from.

    Wearing a freaking colander on your head is NOT "normal".
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