Originally posted by wolfgang59
So now you are insulting my theist friends whom you have never
met? Calling them wishy-washy because I call them sane? You
really are one of the most insulting posters here.

Well, that's great, but my point is that after Judgement, there will be plenty of people who call themselves "Christian" and are not really that will be lining up for the Lake of Fire.

I'm sure that's the kind of "sane" you mean. Because if YOU think they are "sane" after making fun of all the Christians here, then this is the only conclusion I can come to.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
I have used the exact same words that JosephW used in
describing a group and you apparently found that OK.
Perhaps you should have a little rant at him too?

Right, but just in case you haven't gotten my point yet, which obviously you haven't, Joe was criticizing a pseudo-religion that no one believes in. You are criticizing Christianity, which a large percentage of people on this planet DOES believe in.

Originally posted by Agerg
There's about as much chance of this "Forces of Mordor vs the alliance"-esque finale you're so scared of actually happening as me becoming the next pope.

I was aiming more for the civilised-population-median than some supposed centre relative to my own beliefs (though I don't think of myself as any more liberal than the next bloke). As for the people in you ...[text shortened]... ot heard (and I dread to imagine what else they think), would you consider that to be "centre"!?

"Scared" of it? No, I expect I'll be dead before then. The AntiChrist himself and his followers scare me, but denying my God scares me even more.

Trust me, you are more liberal than most (as is probably the "next bloke" too), if the people in my state are any indication of a "norm". I would also think that "most Europeans" are certainly left of "most Americans".

And no, I don't consider people who think women should be seen and not heard as "center", but that was my point. I mentioned them as an example of the far end of the scale away from me.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
it is a belief system that, when looked at objectively, has no less merit than islam of christianity.

that is not important though. why do you care? does what others believe in (sincerely or not) influence your own belief system? does it offend you? why would it?


i am more offended by what westboros believe in, and they are sincere. why would i care about pastafarianism?

Because it is put forth only as a parody of Christianity. It is blasphemy. No one actually believes in it, and yet these people try to get "equal treatment" for something they don't even believe in. I have more respect for Satanists, because they at least believe in what they're putting forth.

Making fun of a real belief with a pseudo-belief and then acting offended if no one believes your pseudo-belief is remarkably offensive to those of us with a real belief. Making the pseudo-belief the yardstick is just more disrespect for the real belief. Of course, that's the aim of espousing the pseudo-belief.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Well, that's great, but my point is that after Judgement, there will be plenty of people who call themselves "Christian" and are not really that will be lining up for the Lake of Fire.

I'm sure that's the kind of "sane" you mean. Because if YOU think they are "sane" after making fun of all the Christians here, then this is the only conclusion I can come to.

I do not make fun of all the Christians here, I may poke fun at their
weak arguments and often use parody to try and get a point across
but I certainly do not make fun of Christians a s a group.

I have respect for (off the top of my head) divegeester, Zahlanzi and
CalJust amongst others and believe they are Christian
(although perhaps not up to your elitist standards)

Originally posted by Suzianne
Right, but just in case you haven't gotten my point yet, which obviously you haven't, Joe was criticizing a pseudo-religion that no one believes in. You are criticizing Christianity, which a large percentage of people on this planet DOES believe in.

So you do not think Christianity can take criticism?
Is criticism only allowed of small groups?
Who gets to decide what size group can be criticised?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Because it is put forth only as a parody of Christianity. It is blasphemy. No one actually believes in it, and yet these people try to get "equal treatment" for something they don't even believe in. I have more respect for Satanists, because they at least believe in what they're putting forth.

Making fun of a real belief with a pseudo-belief and then ...[text shortened]... more disrespect for the real belief. Of course, that's the aim of espousing the pseudo-belief.

"Because it is put forth only as a parody of Christianity"
wrong. that's your ego talking. it is put forth as a parody of all religion.

"It is blasphemy"
how about you ease up on the blasphemy thing. the supreme being doesn't need you to declare what is blasphemy and what isn't.


"No one actually believes in it, and yet these people try to get "equal treatment" for something they don't even believe in"
there are countless christians/muslims/scientologists enjoying the benefits of religion without actually believing in it. there are countless christians believing in christianity and acting completely the opposite.

"Making fun of a real belief with a pseudo-belief and then acting offended if no one believes your pseudo-belief is remarkably offensive to those of us with a real belief. "
only insecure theists are offended. those that believe god is a fragile thing in need of you defending him. i am not offended.

Originally posted by Suzianne
"Scared" of it? No, I expect I'll be dead before then. The AntiChrist himself and his followers scare me, but denying my God scares me even more.

Trust me, you are more liberal than most (as is probably the "next bloke" too), if the people in my state are any indication of a "norm". I would also think that "most Europeans" are certainly left of "most A ...[text shortened]... but that was my point. I mentioned them as an example of the far end of the scale away from me.

Deepthought, throughout the process of him directly, and indirectly chiding me for being what he saw as broad-stroked, ill-discerning antagonism towards you and other theists, countered a statement I made to youReveal Hidden Contentabout your belief in this armageddon thing that's supposed to happen before this century is over. He said:

I'm pretty sure that is not part of Anglican theology.

Acknowledging this, may I ask, with no agenda other than to satisfy a curiosity, on my part, what leads you this belief?

Originally posted by sonhouse
Your god is a man made construct and all the morality engendered therein is also man made so there is no absolute, it is what we make it.

"Your god is a man made construct..."

Not possible. The concept of (a)God with the characteristics associated with a being of infinite dimensions cannot be proven to have originated in the mind of man. In fact, all other gods, which are a construct of human imagination, do not reach the range and scope of the one true creator God. They are cheap knockoffs based on the original thought and idea of God engineered into the mind of man.

"...and all the morality engendered therein is also man made..."

Funny you should say that. Why then are laws made? Is it because of evolution? Aren't moral codes made by man? Does man obey a moral code because evolution has "engendered" a sense of justice into our being, or is it for another reason? If there is no God, then our sense of morality and justice must be as a result of evolutionary processes.

"...so there is no absolute, it is what we make it."

No absolute? No absolute what? It is what we make it? Then why do we make moral judgements? You're not going to deny that are you? Is right and wrong understood by a code of morality engendered by evolution?

I really don't think you know.

Originally posted by josephw
In fact, all other gods, which are a construct of human imagination, do not reach the range and scope of the one true creator God.

Rubbish. I can easily create a god that "reaches the range and scope" of your god.

Originally posted by josephw
Does man obey a moral code because evolution has "engendered" a sense of justice into our being,

In a nutshell; YES.

Living in social groups is part of an evolutionary process, it increases
the chances of survival of that gene pool. A moral code ensures that the
group survives and can out compete a similar group with no moral code.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Rubbish. I can easily create a god that "reaches the range and scope" of your god.

No you can't. You can only imagine.

God isn't an imaginary being as you imagine He is. Were you around before anything existed? How can you possibly know there is no creator God? You can't. You can only imagine that God doesn't exist. On the other hand, I know God exists.

How do I know God exists? Because all that exists is undeniable evidence for a creator God. It's just that simple.

The idea that the universe exists without a causal agent has no merit or meaning, and is based on mere assumption.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
In a nutshell; YES.

Living in social groups is part of an evolutionary process, it increases
the chances of survival of that gene pool. A moral code ensures that the
group survives and can out compete a similar group with no moral code.

Apparently evolution is your god.

Originally posted by josephw
No you can't. You can only imagine.

God isn't an imaginary being as you imagine He is. Were you around before anything existed? How can you possibly know there is no creator God? You can't. You can only imagine that God doesn't exist. On the other hand, I know God exists.

How do I know God exists? Because all that exists is undeniable evidence for a c ...[text shortened]... universe exists without a causal agent has no merit or meaning, and is based on mere assumption.

You said In fact, all other gods, which are a construct of human imagination, do not reach the range and scope of the one true creator God.
And I am saying that is false.
My imagination can construct a god with equal range and scope than yours.

Because my imagination is as good as yours!

Originally posted by josephw
Apparently evolution is your god.

Apparently you neither understand the word "evolution" or "god".