Originally posted by Starrman It's an essential part of humanity that we have conflict, it brings out the best in us: the most amazing works of art, literature, music: the greatest moments of honour and selflessness: the perseverance for what is right; all these things come out of the harshest times. I'd hate to see a world in which there were no conflict. Whilst I have no wish to see ...[text shortened]... s no moments of real greatness. That world would be fundamentally boring and utterly inhuman.
Interesting that you see conflict as a prerequisite for great art, literature, music, honor, selflessness, etc. I have to think it's not truly required.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne The next time you witness a transgression (no matter how egregious), perhaps you'll find comfort in knowing that the perpetrator likely thinks he lives "a life based on truth (and seeking truth), love, and justice...while still having a substancial ego, enjoying life and sensory experiences, and making some money and material possesions on the side."
Originally posted by scottishinnz Whenever people interact over a finite resource, there will be conflict. The only way to avoid that is by reducing human density, since resources will never be infinite.
In a world where mankind has outgrown his ego, I don't really think this would be an issue.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne The next time you witness a transgression (no matter how egregious), perhaps you'll find comfort in knowing that the perpetrator likely thinks he lives "a life based on truth (and seeking truth), love, and justice...while still having a substancial ego, enjoying life and sensory experiences, and making some money and material possesions on the side."
I don't think most actual criminals think that way about themselves, they just don't care.
And if there are some absolute versions of these values, what are they and why.
Why is your truth better than my truth?
Why is your justice better than my justice?
Why is your love better than my love?
Removed
Joined
08 Dec '04
Moves
100919
30 Mar '07 02:04
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne You see having peace and harmony amongst all men as "pointless"?
Dare I ask what you see as the point?
I think the answer to this question is moot . There can never be "Peace on Earth and Good will toward Men" as the saying goes. This is the popular phrase around Christmas isn't it? As long as Satan is the god of this world, it won't happen. When the Prince of Peace begins His reign and Satan is finally destroyed, well then, that is another story....
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne In a world where mankind has outgrown his ego, I don't really think this would be an issue.
Well said.
If [we] agree upon a subject, even though it be wrong, it is better than to disagree and be in the right, for this difference will produce the demolition of the divine foundation. Though one of the parties may be in the right and they disagree that will be the cause of a thousand wrongs, but if they agree and both parties are in the wrong, as it is in unity the truth will be revealed and the wrong made right.
Originally posted by checkbaiter I think the answer to this question is moot . There can never be "Peace on Earth and Good will toward Men" as the saying goes. This is the popular phrase around Christmas isn't it? As long as Satan is the god of this world, it won't happen. When the Prince of Peace begins His reign and Satan is finally destroyed, well then, that is another story....
Yes, and the fairies and leprechauns will dance in the streets.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne Interesting that you see conflict as a prerequisite for great art, literature, music, honor, selflessness, etc. I have to think it's not truly required.
I would have thought it was fairly obvious that the most amazing creations humanity has come up with were in response to some of the worst things. I am not saying it is a necessary condition of greatness, afterall some of the worlds most amazing buildings are religious ones, created under only a belief in god. But when conflict arises, you can be guaranteed that there will be a response.
Harmony breeds banality and averages. The cycle of revolution and peace, war and survival, struggle and success; these bring about the best things in man.
Originally posted by Starrman I would have thought it was fairly obvious that the most amazing creations humanity has come up with were in response to some of the worst things.
Some examples would be good.
Your statement doesn't hold true for such productions as the pyramids, the Parthenon, the Venus of Samothrace...although it does for the Iliad and the Bible. Literature has always been dirty.
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage Some examples would be good.
Your statement doesn't hold true for such productions as the pyramids, the Parthenon, the Venus of Samothrace...although it does for the Iliad and the Bible. Literature has always been dirty.
It does if you consider the religious connotations of those examples, as I mentioned. I don't consider it to be an encompassing position, just one that, were it detracted, would make the world a dull place.
Examples: The revolutionary poets of Europe, Schindler, Chopin, Florence Nightingale, Emeline Pankhurst, the story of Sysyphus, Ghandi. I'm sure I could think of more wide-ranging ones, but it's early and I'm not pumped on my coffee yet.
Originally posted by Starrman Examples: The revolutionary poets of Europe, Schindler, Chopin, Florence Nightingale, Emeline Pankhurst, the story of Sysyphus, Ghandi. I'm sure I could think of more wide-ranging ones, but it's early and I'm not pumped on my coffee yet.
Now you need to contrast these examples with examples of dull, worthless art from more harmonious times--but wait, the same times produced any number of dull, worthless pieces...while the artists of the Sung dynasty produced masterpieces in tranquil isolation.
Of course you will find commentaries on these questions in a classical raga or Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony.
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage Now you need to contrast these examples with examples of dull, worthless art from more harmonious times--but wait, the same times produced any number of dull, worthless pieces...while the artists of the Sung dynasty produced masterpieces in tranquil isolation.
Of course you will find commentaries on these questions in a classical raga or Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony.
I think youre missing the point. I'm not saying that art can't be produced at other points in time, nor that humanity is not prone to acts of greatness. However, if you took conflict away totally there would be a removal of one of creativity's most powerful inspirations. It seems to me on a more holistic level, that the struggle for life gives birth to the essence of what makes us human. I think a harmonious utopia would give brith to clinical uninspired acts of technique, rather than unfettered applications of invention. Stimulus and response if you will, the pressure of life gives rise to the outburst of creativity.
Maybe my original post was a little harsh, I was in a bad mood. The origins of its conception still ring true for me.
Also, it can be argued that your counter-examples have a religious nature to them. Beethoven also suffered from great inner turmoil, both over his encroaching deafness and his social troubles, I have no doubt this inflected on his music.
Originally posted by Starrman I think youre missing the point. I'm not saying that art can't be produced at other points in time, nor that humanity is not prone to acts of greatness. However, if you took conflict away totally there would be a removal of one of creativity's most powerful inspirations. It seems to me on a more holistic level, that the struggle for life gives birth to ...[text shortened]... is encroaching deafness and his social troubles, I have no doubt this inflected on his music.
Peace and harmony amongst all of mankind
29 Mar '07 23:54
Back to Top