1. SubscriberFMF
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    10 Jan '19 00:17
    Vice President Mike Pence is said to be a devout Christian but he is in an unenviable position when he is defending the demonstrably untrue things the U.S. President sometimes says.

    Even if you don't believe the president lies and you don't think that the vice president says anything dishonest when he comments on what the president has said, for the sake of argument, let's say he does.

    And, for the sake of argument, let's not make it a party political thing: let them be from whatever party.

    This thread is not meant to be about retail politics; it's meant to be about morality and religious belief in the context of retail politics.

    If a purportedly devout Christian like Mike Pence knowingly "bears false witness" [lies] for years and years - maybe 8 years under Trump, followed by maybe another 8 years as president [let's say, for the sake of argument that's what pans out], and he does this, willfully and consciously, because he sees it as a necessary part of making his political activity successful, is this morally unsound behaviour [or "sin" if you prefer] mitigated or absolved if he sincerely intends, all along, to repent after the 16 years are over?
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    10 Jan '19 03:10
    @fmf said
    Vice President Mike Pence is said to be a devout Christian but he is in an unenviable position when he is defending the demonstrably untrue things the U.S. President sometimes says.

    Even if you don't believe the president lies and you don't think that the vice president says anything dishonest when he comments on what the president has said, for the sake of argument, let's sa ...[text shortened]... er] mitigated or absolved if he sincerely intends, all along, to repent after the 16 years are over?
    Forgiveness in the Bible is a “release” or a “dismissal” of something. The forgiveness we have in Christ involves the release of sinners from God’s just penalty and the complete dismissal of all charges against us (see Romans 8:1). Colossians 1:14 says that in God’s beloved Son “we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”...

    Forgiveness is an integral part of salvation. When Jesus forgives us, our sins, trespasses, iniquities, and transgressions are erased, wiped off the record. Forgiveness of sin is comparable to financial debt being erased. When Jesus said, “It is finished,” from the cross (John 19:30), He was literally saying, “It is paid in full” (tetelestai in Greek). Jesus took the punishment we deserved, so, when God forgives us of our sins, we are free; we no longer live under that debt. Our sins are wiped out. God will never hold that sin against us (Psalm 103:12).

    https://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-forgiveness.html
  3. SubscriberFMF
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    10 Jan '19 03:19
    @thinkofone said
    https://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-forgiveness.html
    Does the text you have quoted coincide with your own opinion and viewpoint?
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    10 Jan '19 04:041 edit
    @fmf said
    Does the text you have quoted coincide with your own opinion and viewpoint?
    Of course not.

    But from the viewpoint of evangelical Christianity....
  5. SubscriberFMF
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    10 Jan '19 04:10
    @thinkofone said
    Of course not.

    But from the viewpoint of evangelical Christianity....
    Your own viewpoint would be more interesting than a copy paste of someone else's.
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    10 Jan '19 05:392 edits
    @fmf said
    Your own viewpoint would be more interesting than a copy paste of someone else's.
    In the OP, you asked the wrong question. You don't seem to understand the problem domain. That's what's interesting.
  7. SubscriberFMF
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    10 Jan '19 05:45
    @thinkofone said
    In the OP, you asked the wrong question. You don't seem to understand the problem domain.
    Keep your viewpoint to yourself then.
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    10 Jan '19 05:47
    @fmf said
    Keep your viewpoint to yourself then.
    That is my viewpoint.
  9. SubscriberFMF
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    10 Jan '19 05:52
    @thinkofone said
    That is my viewpoint.
    Thanks. I will await the viewpoints of Christians and see if they deviate from your copy paste. There may then be some discussion of those Christian viewpoints on morality and religious belief in the context of retail politics.
  10. Subscriberdivegeester
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    10 Jan '19 07:35
    @thinkofone said
    Of course not.

    But from the viewpoint of evangelical Christianity....
    Does the text you have quoted just represent your viewpoint of the viewpoint of evangelical Christianity or your viewpoint of the viewpoint of Christianity generally?
  11. Subscriberdivegeester
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    10 Jan '19 07:37
    @thinkofone said
    In the OP, you asked the wrong question. You don't seem to understand the problem domain. That's what's interesting.
    Claiming people are asking wrong questions seems to be your forte here. Here is another “wrong question” about your viewpoint of the viewpoint of Christians about their viewpoint of the ministry of Jesus while he walked the earth...

    When Jesus said he was sent by God, was he correct?
  12. Subscriberdivegeester
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    10 Jan '19 07:55
    @fmf said
    Vice President Mike Pence is said to be a devout Christian but he is in an unenviable position when he is defending the demonstrably untrue things the U.S. President sometimes says.

    Even if you don't believe the president lies and you don't think that the vice president says anything dishonest when he comments on what the president has said, for the sake of argument, let's sa ...[text shortened]... er] mitigated or absolved if he sincerely intends, all along, to repent after the 16 years are over?
    The notion that there are some sins which cannot be forgiven, or there is a period of time over which these sins are committed which precludes them from forgiveness, or there is a level of wilfulness about these sins which deems them outside of the attornment, is not supportable scripturally.

    Where or not Pence is a Christian remains to be seen. The only evicence described in the bible as being of value is “fruit”I.e. the fruit of the spirit. The fruit of the spirit in this case is singular in expedition, meaning that isolated behaviours of “love” for example are not evidence.

    The fruit of the spirit IS (singular) and listed 12 attributes of that fruit are: charity (or love), joy, peace, patience, benignity (or kindness), goodness, longanimity (or long-suffering), mildness (or gentleness), faith, modesty, continency (or self-control), and chastity. The absence of these collective behaviours does not mean that a person is not a Christian, it simply mean ps there is no evidence that they are. They are a tree without fruit. So, while Pence may claim to be a Christian we can have no idea wether he is or not.

    The no true Scotsman argument stems from an argument that no person who behaves like that (whatever “that” may be) is part of my group. But as a debating tool, against Christians who adopt this weak platform of using the no true Scotsman argument, it is moot, as every religion will use it. Muslim terrorists are not true Muslims is an example.

    So, Pence may or may not be a Christian, however wether he is or wether he isn’t isn’t is irrelevant as to wether or not he can repent of his lies.

    This is my viewpoint. It may not be a grwst viewpoint, but it is mine.
  13. Subscriberdivegeester
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    10 Jan '19 11:06
    Ahh, the lurking thumber 😆
  14. Standard memberSecondSon
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    10 Jan '19 23:38
    @fmf said
    Vice President Mike Pence is said to be a devout Christian but he is in an unenviable position when he is defending the demonstrably untrue things the U.S. President sometimes says.

    Even if you don't believe the president lies and you don't think that the vice president says anything dishonest when he comments on what the president has said, for the sake of argument, let's sa ...[text shortened]... er] mitigated or absolved if he sincerely intends, all along, to repent after the 16 years are over?
    You're clueless. It doesn't work that way. That's wholesale hypocrisy.

    Just the sort of thing an atheist like you might think of.
  15. SubscriberSuzianne
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    10 Jan '19 23:40
    @secondson said
    You're clueless. It doesn't work that way. That's wholesale hypocrisy.

    Just the sort of thing an atheist like you might think of.
    And it's exactly why Pascal's Wager does not work.
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