Originally posted by NemesioBut no one can know for certain whether God has declared him/herself righteous nor not.
Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]But that isn't true; a person is saved for certain the moment God declares that person righteous, the moment they believe:
Well, yeah. But no one can know for certain whether God has declared him/herself righteous nor not.
That is, one can believe that they are righteous (confer: parable of the Phar ...[text shortened]... f faith,
as the division of the sheep and goats clearly indicates.
Nemesio[/b]
This is also not true. The promised Holy Spirit, the guarantee which God imparts to people the moment they believe in Him, clearly is meant by God to be a comfort and an assurance of their eventual salvation.
"As a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit. So we are always confident" (2 Cor. 5:5). "For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children" (Rom. 8:16).
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This conclusion is not drawn from the premise, nor do I believe in such a thing. So, it begs the
question: why if there is not a moment does this necessitate salvation by works.
Because if there isn't a moment after which we are saved for certain, which we can reckon back to (i.e. "consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus." Rom. 6:11), then we have to ask, "What must I do to make my salvation certain?" And if I have to do something to make my salvation certain, then I am in fact seeking to earn it. But the Spirit of grace is opposed to earning (though not effort), because earning is a remnant of the old law. Such a state of uncertainty is undesirable since it does not glorify God or edify the believer. (Keep in mind I'm not advocating putting forth no effort into spiritual discipline, I'm merely attempting to underscore the implications of uncertainty.)
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I would just like to say a few words about 'works'. That word is bandied about quite a bit, but it is quite vague. It should be made clear that we can have evil works, and good works which aren't God-ordained, and then we can have God-ordained works.
The works which God calls us to do after being declared righteous are not works which we are inclined to do in order to be saved. The saved part is over. The works God calls us to do He Himself accomplishes in us. We are merely to appropriate His grace through faith.
All that God would have a believer do (i.e. to become progressively more like Christ and thus more intimately acquainted with him) is accomplished through faith. "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20). And it is God who accomplishes His will in us. "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13), "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10).
Indeed, a person will have works, but the question is, are those works God-ordained? The foundation is clearly justification by faith, but our concern is, what do we build upon that foundation?
Paul says, "Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ . . . each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done" (1 Cor. 3:11, 13).
Now lets say my weakness is the love of money, and though God has declared me righteous because of faith, I nevertheless fail to appropriate God's grace fully and end up spending more time obsessing over finances than I do seeking God's will. Rajk999's contention is that on Judgment Day Jesus Christ will reject me because many of my works weren't established in Him but instead in worldly pursuits. This is simply not true.
"If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:14-15).
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All in all, save the differences mentioned above, I agree with you.
Originally posted by checkbaiterAnd why a Samaritan?
An example of good works.
I will tell you .. Samaritans were consdidered to be ungodly heathens, not worthy of salvation.
And why include a priest and a Levite?
I will tell you ... these were people considered to be at the top of the religious pecking order and one step away from salvation.
I know why many say this is just an example of good works. Because they do not want to come to terms with HOW IMPORTANT GOOD WORKS ARE. Christ is implying that the non-believers are likely to get salvation before the believers through good works.
Originally posted by Rajk999Christ is implying that the non-believers are likely to get salvation before the believers through good works.
And why a Samaritan?
I will tell you .. Samaritans were consdidered to be ungodly heathens, not worthy of salvation.
And why include a priest and a Levite?
I will tell you ... these were people considered to be at the top of the religious pecking order and one step away from salvation.
I know why many say this is just an example of good works. Because ...[text shortened]... ying that the non-believers are likely to get salvation before the believers through good works.
The reason he used a Samaritan is because the Israelites saw the Samaritans as enemies, 'ungodly heathens unworthy of salvation,' as you say. He is not suggesting that it's possible to earn salvation through good works, instead he uses a Samaritan as a challenge to his audience (the Israelites) with his teaching to 'love thy neighbor as thyself'. Christ had many Gentiles who believed in Him, and it is quite possible that the Samaritan in this story was one.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).
Good works are important, yes, but no one can earn salvation through good works.
Eternal salvation is the gift of grace. It is not of works.
Reward during the millennial kingdom is however according to works. Those works are the works that the transformed and sanctifed Christian life produced.
Permit me to repeat this in other words.
The eternal salvation is a gift received because one believes into Christ.
But if you will read Revelation 20 you will see that before the eternal age described in Revelation 21 and 22, there is the millennial kingdom. During that period of 1,000 years the saved believers are either temporarily rewarded or temporarily punished according to the works that issued from their living in Christ.
Reward for works is temporary.
Eternal redemption and eternal life in the new heaven and new earth
is the gift of God.
This should be obvious with careful consideration of the Bible. That is because God would never save man just for forgiving him only. In addition to forgiveness God desires to transform man's living so that he lives unto God totally, after having been forgiven.
So the gift and the works produced from the gift are important to God.
From a Christian preacher who has suffered Persecution in both the East and the West:
"After the enemy has persecuted you, his strategy may change. Instead of persecution, there might be a welcome. Do not regard this welcome as a good thing. Rather, you must fear being welcomed more than being stung by a scorpion. It is good for us to suffer persecution, opposition, and attack. But whenever people extend us a warm welcome, that is a most dangerous time. When you are attacked and are undergoing persecution, do not be discouraged, for that is a strong sign that you are on the right track and that you have not been distracted from following the Lord's steps. But beware of a warm welcome. It is better to suffer persecution than to receive a warm welcome."
(Life-Study of Revelation, Witness Lee, LSM, pp 142-143)
Originally posted by jaywillIt is a fatal mistake to persecute the self-righteous. It only makes them take themselves more seriously, and feeds their paranoia that the Evil One has it in for them.
From a Christian preacher who has suffered Persecution in both the East and the West:
[b]"After the enemy has persecuted you, his strategy may change. Instead of persecution, there might be a welcome. Do not regard this welcome as a good thing. Rather, you must fear being welcomed more than being stung by a scorpion. It is good for us to suffer persecut ...[text shortened]... "
(Life-Study of Revelation, Witness Lee, LSM, pp 142-143) [/b]
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeThat is true.
It is a fatal mistake to persecute the self-righteous. It only makes them take themselves more seriously, and feeds their paranoia that the Evil One has it in for them.
But above I am not insinuating that ALL persecuted people are righteous. And you should not assume that there are no proper disciples of Christ who are living righteously.
The fact of the matter is that down through the ages and today also, there are believers in Christ living righteous lives who are persecuted. This speaking was for their benefit.
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeSo to you there are no Christians living righteously but only paranoid people?
It is a fatal mistake to persecute the self-righteous. It only makes them take themselves more seriously, and feeds their paranoia that the Evil One has it in for them.
Perhaps this is a reaction of your own self righteousness - resenting the idea that anyone could be any better than yourself.
Originally posted by jaywillCould you point out where I stated that no Christians lived righteously?
So to you there are no Christians living righteously but only paranoid people?
Perhaps this is a reaction of your own self righteousness - resenting the idea that anyone could be any better than yourself.
That way you could convince me you weren't being paranoid.
For the record, I believe there are plenty of people better than me. Some of them are even deliberate atheists and practising homosexuals.
Do you believe there are any deliberate atheists and practising homosexuals better than you?
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Originally posted by Rajk999I'm not saying that good works are unimportant. I am saying that good works are a result of faith. They go hand in hand. But to imply that salvation has anything to do with good works alone is contrary to what the bible teaches.
And why a Samaritan?
I will tell you .. Samaritans were consdidered to be ungodly heathens, not worthy of salvation.
And why include a priest and a Levite?
I will tell you ... these were people considered to be at the top of the religious pecking order and one step away from salvation.
I know why many say this is just an example of good works. Because ...[text shortened]... ying that the non-believers are likely to get salvation before the believers through good works.
Originally posted by jaywillFor the record, I also believe that plenty of Christians are wrongly persecuted. That's in the definition of "persecuted". Same goes for those who believe in Falun Gong, etc.
That is true.
But above I am not insinuating that ALL persecuted people are righteous. And you should not assume that there are no proper disciples of Christ who are living righteously.
The fact of the matter is that down through the ages and today also, there are believers in Christ living righteous lives who are persecuted. This speaking was for their benefit.
Originally posted by checkbaiterIs faith a necessary condition for producing good works, or merely a facilitator of good works?
I'm not saying that good works are unimportant. I am saying that good works are a result of faith. They go hand in hand. But to imply that salvation has anything to do with good works alone is contrary to what the bible teaches.
Could it also be a necessary condition for producing bad works, or a facilitator of bad works?
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Is faith a necessary condition for producing good works, or merely a facilitator of good works?
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Absolutely.
Listen carefully to Christ's words here:
"I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman. (John 15:1)
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it that it may bear more fruit. (15:2)
Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
(15:4)
I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from me you can do nothing." (15:5)
In this teaching Jesus is the Vine with the rich life. The branches are the disciples. The rich life from the Vine flows into the branches to bear fruit for God's eternal purpose. Without this abiding in Him the disciples can do nothing.
They may do a lot of things. But it will all count as nothing if it is not out of the mutual abiding in Christ. It accounts for nothing in God's kingdom, cannot build Gods' kingdom, and cannot further God's interests.
The works of eternal value for the building up of the kingdom of God must come out of abiding in the living Christ as the True Vine. So once we are saved by Him we must then learn to abide in Him and allow Him to abide in us.
The key to abiding in Christ is firstly to see, to get the revelation, that He is the Vine and the saved person is the branch attached to Him.
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)
First receiving Him into our hearts then we must see that we are organically united with Him just as a branch is attached to a vine.
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Could it also be a necessary condition for producing bad works, or a facilitator of bad works?
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To me this is a meaningless issue.
Originally posted by jaywillIf faith is a necessary condition for good works, then no faithless person has committed good works, correct?
[b]++++++++++++++++++++++++
Is faith a necessary condition for producing good works, or merely a facilitator of good works?
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Absolutely.
Listen carefully to Christ's words here:
"I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman. (John 15:1)
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He t ...[text shortened]... works?
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To me this is a meaningless issue.[/b]