1. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    04 Mar '15 21:412 edits
    Note to my enemies before I begin. I am NOT advocating physically disciplining children, I am merely seeking to find out what is the rational behind banning it.

    Legally the only European countries to allow corporal punishment in both the home and school are the Czech Republic and France.

    The Bible itself allows for the physical disciplining of children. (there are various interpretations on what the Hebrew term means but its sufficient to state that the Bible allows for the provision of physical punishment.)

    I was occasionally physically disciplined as a child, mouth washed out with soap once, smacked with a slipper on a few occasions once for electrocuting my sister, all with no measurable lasting detrimental effect.

    I would like to ask those opposed to the corporal punishment of children under any circumstances no matter how serious or deliberate , what is the rational behind banning the physical disciplining of children in school or the home?
  2. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52613
    04 Mar '15 22:03
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Note to my enemies before I begin. I am NOT advocating physically disciplining children, I am merely seeking to find out what is the rational behind banning it.

    Legally the only European countries to allow corporal punishment in both the home and school are the Czech Republic and France.

    The Bible itself allows for the physical disciplining o ...[text shortened]... what is the rational behind banning the physical disciplining of children in school or the home?
    The result of psychological studies showing that kind of discipline negatively effects children later in life. I remember one time my mom got so pisssed at some infraction of mine she took a belt and hit her OWN arm about 5 times and said what do you think of THAT? That got too me a lot more than any whipping I ever had🙂 Man, she was PIIISSSED.....
  3. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    04 Mar '15 23:13
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    The result of psychological studies showing that kind of discipline negatively effects children later in life. I remember one time my mom got so pisssed at some infraction of mine she took a belt and hit her OWN arm about 5 times and said what do you think of THAT? That got too me a lot more than any whipping I ever had🙂 Man, she was PIIISSSED.....
    So you are saying that physical punishment negatively effects children later in life? In what way?
  4. Joined
    29 Dec '08
    Moves
    6788
    05 Mar '15 01:03
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Note to my enemies before I begin. I am NOT advocating physically disciplining children, I am merely seeking to find out what is the rational behind banning it.

    Legally the only European countries to allow corporal punishment in both the home and school are the Czech Republic and France.

    The Bible itself allows for the physical disciplining o ...[text shortened]... what is the rational behind banning the physical disciplining of children in school or the home?
    You are as capable as anyone to do your own internet searching on corporal punishment in the home. Anyone can trot out anecdotal evidence and studies that support one side or the other (although formal studies tend to support limitations on, or elimination of, corporal punishment.)

    I assume you would agree that corporal punishment should be limited in intensity, physically and emotionally. What are your limits?
  5. Standard membervivify
    rain
    Joined
    08 Mar '11
    Moves
    9780
    05 Mar '15 01:312 edits
    While I'm not necessarily for corporal punishment, I'm not really against it either. I think it's all in the intent and execution of a punishment, physical or not, that leaves scars. I once saw a video of a mother who embarrassed her child by attending her classes with her, shaming her daughter for misbehaving in school, while recording the entire class day to upload to the Internet. This can leave some serious scars in the firm of self -esteem issues, shame and potential bullying from classmates.

    Likewise, I don't think it's the physical harm as much as a complete lack of sympathy, love and objectivity behind many instances of spanking, that makes it detrimental. Spanking can work if it's only one aspect of discipline; discipline shouldn't start at the behavior, it should be pay off raising and teaching a child. Spanking also shouldn't be the default method of punishment. If out can be avoided, it should.

    My brother-in-law had an accident that seriously injured him, and will be a lifelong problem. When his daughter was 2, she ran out into the middle of the street , all while her father, (who is not fast enough to catch his daughter due to mobility issues) was yelling at her to stop. Thankfully, the street had no cars diving at that moment. If the were, it could have been tragic. When he got his daughter back, he spanked her immediately. This made sense, since she was to young to understand the potential danger she was in, and wasn't yet able to communicate well enough for such a talk. Spanking was the only way to communicate that she must listen to her father at all times.

    So while I completely understand why some believe spanking is wrong, I think there are occasions where it may be the best option. I know someone will say that my in-law should simply not allow his daughter near a street; but no one can ensure a 100% safe environment at all times. A child (especially that young) may be in a situation where the only thing that can save her is that she heeds words like "no" and "stop" immediately. Sometimes, spanking is the only way to instill that.
  6. Standard memberDeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    Cosmopolis
    Joined
    27 Oct '04
    Moves
    78519
    05 Mar '15 01:56
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Note to my enemies before I begin. I am NOT advocating physically disciplining children, I am merely seeking to find out what is the rational behind banning it.

    Legally the only European countries to allow corporal punishment in both the home and school are the Czech Republic and France.

    The Bible itself allows for the physical disciplining o ...[text shortened]... what is the rational behind banning the physical disciplining of children in school or the home?
    Some parents take it too far, they hit their children too hard. I think the rationale is that any law which allows corporal punishment of children lets excessive punishment through with it so they just removed the exemption from the assault laws for parents altogether. I think that restraining them - that's to say holding onto them so they can't move their arms while they are being told off - is legal and apparently quite effective.
  7. Joined
    30 Sep '12
    Moves
    731
    05 Mar '15 03:23
    Originally posted by vivify
    I once saw a video of a mother who embarrassed her child by attending her classes with her, shaming her daughter for misbehaving in school, while recording the entire class day to upload to the Internet. This can leave some serious scars in the firm of self -esteem issues, shame and potential bullying from classmates.
    I can't remember if it was Charles Manson or some other killer, but as a kid he was forced to wear a dress to school for doing something that angered his mother. That's taking shaming way too far.
  8. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    05 Mar '15 07:49
    Originally posted by JS357
    You are as capable as anyone to do your own internet searching on corporal punishment in the home. Anyone can trot out anecdotal evidence and studies that support one side or the other (although formal studies tend to support limitations on, or elimination of, corporal punishment.)

    I assume you would agree that corporal punishment should be limited in intensity, physically and emotionally. What are your limits?
    Yes I can do my own research and yes I can weigh up the arguments for and against. here is an example.

    Why Should Corporal Punishment Be Banned?

    Corporal punishment should be banned for the following reasons:

    1. It has no place in the education of children.
    2. It perpetuates the cycle of abuse.

    It Has No Place in the Education of Children.

    Corporal punishment is not allowed in the military, mental institutions and prisons. But it is still legal to hit students in 20 states. The research shows that children who are beaten and abused are more likely to be prone to depression, low self-esteem and suicide. The simple fact that corporal punishment as a disciplinary measure is not part of any education curriculum indicates that educators at every level know that corporal punishment has no place in the classroom. Discipline can and should be taught be example.

    Most leading professional associations oppose corporal punishment in all its forms. The reason why is that they feel it causes irreparable emotional damage to young people.
    It Perpetuates the Cycle of Abuse.

    I learned years ago about corporal punishment from a man who was an expert in the field. I co-founded a high school in Nassau, Bahamas in 1994. As deputy director of the school, one of the first issues I had to deal with was discipline. Dr. Elliston Rahming, the owner and director of the school, was a criminologist. He had very firm views about the subject: there would be no corporal punishment of any kind. We had to find better, more effective ways than beating to enforce discipline. In the Bahamas, beating children was, and still, is an accepted disciplinary method in the home and in the school. Our solution was to develop a Code of Discipline which basically penalized unacceptable behavior according to the severity of the infraction. Everything from dress code to drugs, weapons and sexual infractions was covered. Remediation and resolution, retraining and reprogramming were the goals. Yes, we did get to the point on two or three occasions where we actually did suspend and expel students. The biggest problem we faced was breaking the cycle of abuse.

    http://privateschool.about.com/cs/forteachers/a/beating.htm

    It appears to me that these arguments are quite fallacious, the rhetoric inflammatory and the reasons given devoid of substance. Take the first example, it has no place in the education of children. This is presented as a fact when in reality its nothing more than an opinion. The reasons given underlining it are equally dubious. That is not practised in the military, irrelevancy. That abuse leads to depression , logical fallacy, no one is talking of abusing anyone. That it has no part in education and therefore should not be part of education is cyclical thinking. All in all a very shoddy piece of reasoning.

    Again the second paragraph is equally as dubious, no serious educator uses corporal punishment to enforce discipline? its used not as a source of motivation but as a punitive measure for a serious misdemeanour that is already committed and again I doubt there is any serious evidence that a smack on the bum has had any real negative effect and the idea that it leads to a cycle of abuse I find quite ludicrous to be honest.

    None of these arguments appear to me to be reasonable nor even rational and yet in Europe it illegal to administer corporal punishment in any form.

    I am neither for or against it at present, I am merely trying to understand the rationale.
  9. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    05 Mar '15 08:14
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    Some parents take it too far, they hit their children too hard. I think the rationale is that any law which allows corporal punishment of children lets excessive punishment through with it so they just removed the exemption from the assault laws for parents altogether. I think that restraining them - that's to say holding onto them so they can't move their arms while they are being told off - is legal and apparently quite effective.
    Ok I understand, its to prevent the excessive use of force. This may be a valid argument.
  10. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    05 Mar '15 08:32
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Ok I understand, its to prevent the excessive use of force. This may be a valid argument.
    That is a large part of it, but I don't think its a particularly valid argument. Its dangerously close to being a slippery slope argument.
    My own opinion is that corporal punishment is generally the lazy way out, in fact any punishment is the lazy way out. Generally it is better to get your child to want to do the right thing because its right, not because he/she is afraid of punishment.
    I admit to being lazy, and believe some corporal punishment should be allowed. Although there could possibly be an age limit as it is simply not that effective with older children unless used to excess. I also think excessive punishment of a non-corporal kind should be outlawed along with excessive corporal punishment.
    I believe corporal punishment by educators should probably not be allowed.
  11. Joined
    04 Feb '05
    Moves
    29132
    05 Mar '15 09:241 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Note to my enemies before I begin. I am NOT advocating physically disciplining children, I am merely seeking to find out what is the rational behind banning it.

    Legally the only European countries to allow corporal punishment in both the home and school are the Czech Republic and France.

    The Bible itself allows for the physical disciplining o ...[text shortened]... what is the rational behind banning the physical disciplining of children in school or the home?
    "The Bible itself allows for the physical disciplining of children. "
    including stoning a disobedient son to death.


    " what is the rational behind banning the physical disciplining of children in school"
    you are seriously asking what is wrong with a stranger smacking your child?

    "or the home?"
    it is hard to prosecute child abusers when you have unclear laws. how do you regulate child beatings? do 3 strokes with a cane qualify as abuse but 2 don't? does the physically weaker mother get to smack the child 3 times but the father only 2 and a half?

    you make ALL physical correction punishable and then you show leniency on a case by case basis. can you think of many people who will report a mother for gently smacking her child once on the buttocks? can you think of many judges who will send to jail a first offender or even second for such a thing?
  12. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52613
    05 Mar '15 11:48
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    So you are saying that physical punishment negatively effects children later in life? In what way?
    It turns out you can discipline kids in ways that doesn't involve violence.
    One thing noted: When kids are beaten as children, they are much more likely to continue to THEIR kids, physical violence goes on generationally.
  13. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    05 Mar '15 12:17
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    It turns out you can discipline kids in ways that doesn't involve violence.
    One thing noted: When kids are beaten as children, they are much more likely to continue to THEIR kids, physical violence goes on generationally.
    We are not talking about beating children but physically chastising them. An occasional smack on the bum or being given the belt on the palm of the hands as was done at my school is not a beating. You have failed to demonstrate how it can be construed as a beating.
  14. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    05 Mar '15 12:18
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "The Bible itself allows for the physical disciplining of children. "
    including stoning a disobedient son to death.


    " what is the rational behind banning the physical disciplining of children in school"
    you are seriously asking what is wrong with a stranger smacking your child?

    "or the home?"
    it is hard to prosecute child abusers when you have u ...[text shortened]... you think of many judges who will send to jail a first offender or even second for such a thing?
    The fact is it remains illegal.
  15. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52613
    05 Mar '15 12:54
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    We are not talking about beating children but physically chastising them. An occasional smack on the bum or being given the belt on the palm of the hands as was done at my school is not a beating. You have failed to demonstrate how it can be construed as a beating.
    I think it would be the continual use of physical punishment, whether a slap on the butt or whacking with a stick as in 19th century England and the US would be the key to whether a kid would continue that into the next generation.

    If a kid gets whacked on the butt say once a month, he or she would be unlikely to get it in their minds that would be the way to go with their kids.

    I would think it much more likely they would continue that if they got whacked a few times a week. That would tend to stick in memory a lot more prominently than once a month kind of thing.
Back to Top