Prayer

Originally posted by FMF
I don't use the word anymore. Religionists use it to refer to breaking the rules of their religion. For right and wrong, I use the words moral and immoral, which only partly overlap with "sin".

Not using it doesn't mean you cannot define it, give it ago what does it mean?
I assume you have some meaning you think of when you are asking me about
how I am applying it, what does that word mean?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'd say when someone does things like drugs that harm themselves that
is sinning against one's self. That too would be doing harm to something
that God made, something that is suppose to be a Temple for God, so God
is involved in that too. I don't think you can avoid sinning against God as
God takes what we do to ourselves and each other personally as well.

When you think of the word 'sin' what do you think it means?
Kelly

Good points....

Originally posted by KellyJay
Not using it doesn't mean you cannot define it, give it ago what does it mean?y

I already told you. To religionists it refers to instances of breaking the rules of their religion. To me it means the same: an act or thought that religionists see as breaking the rules of their religion and a transgression of what they claim to be "God's will".

Originally posted by galveston75
Are your really this confused or just pushing the issue?

I am confused as to why you cannot answer the question.

Either resisting temptation is totally within
ones power and there is no need for prayer
OR
Resisting temptation is not totally within
ones power and Godr can prevent one
putting oneself into the path of temptation.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
I am confused as to why you cannot answer the question.

Either resisting temptation is totally within
ones power and there is no need for prayer
OR
Resisting temptation is not totally within
ones power and Godr can prevent one
putting oneself into the path of temptation.

If resisting temptation is totally within one's power to resist, why would that mean
that there is no need for prayer?

Simply being able to do something does not make it the 'right thing to do', unless
you believe God should not give anyone the will to do whatever it is they want?
Temptation comes from our lusts you can lust for things that are completely
harmless and good, you can lust for things that belong to another, you don't have
to hit a dark path to be tempted every path will present temptation if your heart is
so incline to lust.
Kelly

Originally posted by wolfgang59
God is not that powerful then?

Either resisting temptation is totally within
ones power and there is no need for prayer
[b]OR
Resisting temptation is not totally within
ones power and Godr can prevent one
putting oneself into the path of temptation.

WHICH?[/b]

Jesus the son of God felt the need to pray for endurance when facing a trial, why?
because he was in the form of a human being and appealed to God as a higher
authority for strength. It seems that persons who have made a study of the
psychology of this, for example, those working with alcoholics have came to the
conclusion that appeals to a higher authority work in helping one transcend oneself.

Now while i do not deny this, it is not the primary reason a christian prays for the
scriptures indicate, if you know anything about it, that prayer may result in
something which cannot be rationalised, for example, 'the peace of God which
excels all thought', from which we deduce that a purely rational explanation of why
one feels a sense of peace cannot be given. In like manner one may pray for
power, 'beyond what is normal', when facing an extremely trying circumstance, in
order that one can transcends ones limits of endurance. Now it will be readily seen
that none of these scenarios are dependent upon, Gods ability to provide strength
when needed and in proportion to the situation, nor in coping with the temptation
entirely on ones own, because we know, that many difficulties cannot be overcome
when relying on oneself ( i cite for example the procedures of alcoholics anonymous
who recommend an appeal to a higher authority in their teaching program to help
sufferers overcome their addiction to alcohol), thus is can be thoroughly
demonstrated that neither of your assertions has any validity.

Your second assertion fails miserably to the fact that we are free moral agents and
responsible for our own actions.

Originally posted by KellyJay
If resisting temptation is totally within one's power to resist, why would that mean
that there is no need for prayer?

Kelly

You never answered my question.

But here we go again ...

If resisting temptation is totally within one's power
to resist, why would that mean that there is a need
for prayer?

And how would anyone know it had worked?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
You never answered my question.

But here we go again ...

If resisting temptation is totally within one's power
to resist, why would that mean that there is a need
for prayer?

And how would anyone know it had worked?

Well the first time I saw you post it was not really a question but a choice, so there
really isn't a here we go again.

"God is not that powerful then?

Either resisting temptation is totally within
ones power and there is no need for prayer
OR
Resisting temptation is not totally within
ones power and Godr can prevent one
putting oneself into the path of temptation.

WHICH?"

Your Question's answer:

There are a lot of things within our power to do that we still call upon others for
help, we get people to help with our taxes, we get personal trainers to help us
get into better shape, we get teachers to walk us through complex studies all of
which we could do on our own. So I don't see why you think asking God for help
is such a big deal?

With respect to how would you know...you will not always be able to grasp God's
help that does not mean it isn't there. There are going to be other times that
without a doubt God's help is there and you will have no question about it. God
leads us and guides us through life and does not have to act in such away like He
did when we brought His people out of Egypt with the plagues, sometimes He pulls
off what He wants done with just the right word from a friend. He works all things
together for the good that love Him, even those things that were done purely for
evils sake against them.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
There are a lot of things within our power to do that we still call upon others for
help, we get people to help with our taxes, we get personal trainers to help us
get into better shape, we get teachers to walk us through complex studies all of
which we could do on our own. So I don't see why you think asking God for help
is such a big deal?

Thanks for your reply. I have no problem with you asking your god for help - seems pretty sensible to me. Not asking your god for help would be like finding a genie in a bottle and not using your 3 wishes!

My intrigue goes back to Robbie's statement when he said
As the verse states, its according to his will.

That is what I dont get - from my perspective its the same as "Que sera, sera".
God's will is followed regardless.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Thanks for your reply. I have no problem with you asking your god for help - seems pretty sensible to me. Not asking your god for help would be like finding a genie in a bottle and not using your 3 wishes!

My intrigue goes back to Robbie's statement when he said
As the verse states, its according to his will.

That is what I dont get - from my perspective its the same as "Que sera, sera".
God's will is followed regardless.

Spiritually speaking from my Christian perspective:

There are several things going on at once, you have billions of people acting
out in their own wills doing their own things. There is Satan acting against all of
those people attempting to promote his agenda, and God who is working all
things towards His ends. It does get messy from time to time, yes!

God is working all things together for the good of those that love Him according
to scripture. This is something He is doing and we are not always aware of that
in our lives by the look of things. Our deaths isn't the end, our success in this
life isn't the winning either! All things here are but a shadow of what is to come
a temporary place where all the toys stay when we leave it. So from time to
time when evil things happen here we can in the midst of them ask God for
help. The help isn't always beating back the evil when the help does come, as
I was saying this life isn't the end, it is standing and walking through it no
matter what comes our way.

Nowhere are we told in scripture that God will protect us from having bad
things happen to us like they do all people, what we are told is that God is here
for us and will never leave us or forsake us. This may seem like a cop out but I
can tell you from the perspective of someone who has had bad things happen, it
is a comfort beyond words. The world we live in can give peace, but it can also
take it away, with God what He gives us the world no matter what happens
can ever take away God's peace.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
This may seem like a cop out but I can tell you from the perspective of
someone who has had bad things happen, it is a comfort beyond words. The
world we live in can give peace, but it can also take it away, with God what He
gives us the world no matter what happens can ever take away God's peace.

Kelly

I'm glad it is a comfort to you and others - but I still dont get it.

On the one hand god is omnipotent and has everything mapped out - on the other hand praying can help (ie change things.)

I dont want to prolong this discussion because we are in danger of losing sight of the ball!

Thanks for your time and honest replies.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
I'm glad it is a comfort to you and others - but I still dont get it.

On the one hand god is omnipotent and has everything mapped out - on the other hand praying can help (ie [b]change things.)

I dont want to prolong this discussion because we are in danger of losing sight of the ball!

Thanks for your time and honest replies.[/b]

I do not buy into God has mapped out everything, He has left up many things
to our choices and that is part of the mix. I think He is more than able to do
both.
Kelly

Originally posted by wolfgang59
I'm glad it is a comfort to you and others - but I still dont get it.

On the one hand god is omnipotent and has everything mapped out - on the other hand praying can help (ie [b]change things.)

I dont want to prolong this discussion because we are in danger of losing sight of the ball!

Thanks for your time and honest replies.[/b]

Where do you get the idea that he has it all mapped out?

Originally posted by galveston75
Where do you get the idea that he has it all mapped out?

Many claim that their god's omniscience includes all future and past events.

I remember the debate and someone said god existed "outside" time.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'd say when someone does things like drugs that harm themselves that
is sinning against one's self. That too would be doing harm to something
that God made, something that is suppose to be a Temple for God, so God
is involved in that too. I don't think you can avoid sinning against God as
God takes what we do to ourselves and each other personally as well.

When you think of the word 'sin' what do you think it means?
Kelly

When you think of the word 'sin' what do you think it means? Kelly
It has little more relation to right and wrong than custard is related to heaviness."A sin" is merely one of a somewhat arbitrary collectionReveal Hidden Contentof things some invented entity is claimed to dislike.To sin is to perform at least one of the things in that collection. Any overlap with things that are right or wrong is purely coincidental.