Prayer

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Scenario for you -

A person goes into theatre for life saving surgery, the family who are Christians pray to God that their loved one survives. Unfortunately their loved one doesn't make it.

In the above example are you saying that God hears this families prayers yet decides that this person surviving the operation is not part of his will and let ...[text shortened]... rson die? If surviving the operation was part of his will then could he have saved this person?

I cannot say, I am but a man. No one knows the 'mind', of Jehovah. More often than
not, people pray for the strength to endure the trial.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
A continuation of another thread.

So how do you account for prayer not working in this instance?

Take 1 John 5:14-15 -

[quote]14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have ask ...[text shortened]... eturn. So if God heard the prayers and yet they weren't answered what do you put that down to?

I have two related questions; I hope it's not too far off topic. I don't intend to get into any debates here on these questions.

I am not asking these questions sarcastically or rhetorically (as if I have the answer in mind already).

1. The Bible talks about how to pray, spelling out what we call the Lord's prayer. This prayer has, "thy will be done" at its core. Don't all prayers for God to do something, really say, "Let it be that your will is that (say) those miners will be rescued"? Not that I am trying to enforce any specific wording, but isn't this the proper attitude of prayer? If it is, could you describe the religious value of prayer? Can it change what God wills? (I think prayer can have meditative and psychological value to those who pray.)

2. Catholics say "O mary conceived without sin pray for us who have recourse to thee." Is this proper? Is it a prayer? What is it's religious value? (Again, I think it can have value as above.)

Thanks.

Originally posted by FMF
Well that's a bit odd. Here's the exchange:

Originally posted by kevcvs57
[b]So is the sin in not knowing what God's will is, or not doing what God want's i.e the sin of ignorance or disobedience?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Sin is going against what you know is right. You don't have to know God's will on anything to sin, you can k ...[text shortened]...

But when pressed on this you now say that you DO have to know God's will to sin?[/b]

You can sin against yourself, God, and others...you have a hard time putting
that together?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You can sin against yourself, God, and others...you have a hard time putting that together?

Are there - for example - "sins sin against yourself" that God does not consider to be "sins"?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
A continuation of another thread.

So how do you account for prayer not working in this instance?

Take 1 John 5:14-15 -

[quote]14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have ask ...[text shortened]... eturn. So if God heard the prayers and yet they weren't answered what do you put that down to?

Lets establish this fact first for ALL humans.

Ecclesiastes 9:11
Good News Translation (GNT)

11 I realized another thing, that in this world fast runners do not always win the races, and the brave do not always win the battles. The wise do not always earn a living, intelligent people do not always get rich, and capable people do not always rise to high positions. Bad luck happens to everyone.

This is from God's word the Bible about this issue of terrible things happening to us ALL.

Now does God only protect or answer the prayers of special people?

Not always unless it is within his will which is to re-establish his Kingdom that the first man and woman decided for us all that they did not want and the Kingdom that Satan said God himself did not have the right to rule.
The only people as a whole that he protected were the offspring and nation from Abraham's seed that the promised messiah Jesus had to come thru. It could not be allowed to be cut off somewhere during that time period.

So does God answer our prayers or not?

What exactly does the "model prayer" tell us to pray for and expect answers for?

"Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. 11 Give us today our bread for this day; 12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the wicked one."

The point here is who is the wicked one that we pray to be delivered from? Satan.

A few points to think on....

Not All Requests Are Granted

"In his unselfish ministry, Paul suffered from what he described as “a thorn in the flesh.” (2 Corinthians 12:7) This could have been the mental and emotional distress caused by opposers and “false brothers.” (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4) Or it could have been the physical discomfort of a chronic eye affliction. (Galatians 4:15) Whatever the case, this “thorn in the flesh” had a weakening effect on Paul. “I three times entreated the Lord that it might depart from me,” he wrote. However, Paul’s request was not granted. It was explained to Paul that the spiritual benefits he had already received from God, such as power to endure trials, were sufficient. Furthermore, God said: “My power is being made perfect in weakness.”—2 Corinthians 12:8, 9.

What do we learn from the example of and Paul? Jehovah God indeed listens to the prayers of those who humbly seek to serve him. But this does not mean that he always grants their requests because God has a long-range view of matters. He knows better than we do what is in our best interests. More important, he always acts in harmony with his stated purpose as recorded in the Bible."

Another point: Will prayer lead to a change in your situation?
It may. We should realize, though, that Jehovah does not always answer our prayers in the manner that we may want. Nevertheless, prayer helps us to keep our mental balance, so that our distresses do not overwhelm us. “The peace of God” can stabilize us when we are burdened down with distressing emotions. Like a garrison of soldiers assigned to protect a city from hostile invasion, “the peace of God” will protect our hearts and our mental powers. It will also allow us to rise above our doubts, fears, and negative thoughts and prevent us from reacting rashly and unwisely.—Ps. 145:18.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
As the verse states, its according to his will.

So god listens to a prayer.

If it coincides with his will (ie it was going to happen anyway)
then your prayer is answered.

If it doesnt coincide with his will (ie it wasnt going to happen)
then your prayer is not answered.

What does prayer achieve in either case?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
So god listens to a prayer.

If it coincides with his will (ie it was going to happen anyway)
then your prayer is answered.

If it doesnt coincide with his will (ie it wasnt going to happen)
then your prayer is not answered.

What does prayer achieve in either case?

Read the above post....

Originally posted by galveston75
What do we learn from the example of and Paul? Jehovah God indeed listens to the prayers of those who humbly seek to serve him. But this does not mean that he always grants their requests because God has a long-range view of matters. He knows better than we do what is in our best interests. More important, he always acts in harmony with his stated purpo ...[text shortened]... ed in the Bible."

Another point: Will prayer lead to a change in your situation?
It may.

Just as I said. (But long-winded)

I particularly like

"Will prayer lead to a change in your situation?"

"It may"

Absolutely brilliant! 🙄

Originally posted by wolfgang59
So god listens to a prayer.

If it coincides with his will (ie it was going to happen anyway)
then your prayer is answered.

If it doesnt coincide with his will (ie it wasnt going to happen)
then your prayer is not answered.

What does prayer achieve in either case?

no this is an oversimplification, it fails to take into consideration that it may not be the
time for ones prayer to be answered, also it is evident that prayers may remain
seemingly unanswered yet God is conscious of what is transpiring, for example, Christ
when he was on the torture stake cried out to God, my God, why have you forsaken
me and also the apostle Paul states that three times he entreated God to remove what
is thought to be a debilitating illness, yet it remained, Paul reasoning that Gods
'undeserved kindness', was compensation enough.

One prays to find the strength or wisdom to cope with any given situation, Christ
prayed in the garden of Gethsemane for strength prior to his arrest, James, the half
brother of Christ entreats Christians to pray for wisdom. It accomplishes all sorts of
things. Unburdening of guilt, a peaceful disposition, a cleansed conscience.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Just as I said. (But long-winded)

I particularly like

"Will prayer lead to a change in your situation?"

"It may"

Absolutely brilliant! 🙄

yes it is brilliant, for example one may pray to resist temptation, its hardly likely to
work if one puts oneself in the path of temptation, is it. 🙄

Originally posted by FMF
Are there - for example - "sins sin against yourself" that God does not consider to be "sins"?

I'd say when someone does things like drugs that harm themselves that
is sinning against one's self. That too would be doing harm to something
that God made, something that is suppose to be a Temple for God, so God
is involved in that too. I don't think you can avoid sinning against God as
God takes what we do to ourselves and each other personally as well.

When you think of the word 'sin' what do you think it means?
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
Are there - for example - "sins sin against yourself" that God does not consider to be "sins"?

God if you read scripture says we will be judged by our own judgments, so
there we will be writting our own set of rules we either obeyed or disobeyed.
Personally, I don't see anyone I have ever met anywhere at any time that
will also NOT fail at this too! I image a lot of excuses will be applied, but many
will fall short as we didn't allow for that with others we condemned.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
When you think of the word 'sin' what do you think it means?

I don't use the word anymore. Religionists use it to refer to breaking the rules of their religion. For right and wrong, I use the words moral and immoral, which only partly overlap with "sin".

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes it is brilliant, for example one may pray to resist temptation, its hardly likely to
work if one puts oneself in the path of temptation, is it. 🙄

God is not that powerful then?

Either resisting temptation is totally within
ones power and there is no need for prayer
OR
Resisting temptation is not totally within
ones power and Godr can prevent one
putting oneself into the path of temptation.

WHICH?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
God is not that powerful then?

Either resisting temptation is totally within
ones power and there is no need for prayer
[b]OR
Resisting temptation is not totally within
ones power and Godr can prevent one
putting oneself into the path of temptation.

WHICH?[/b]

Are your really this confused or just pushing the issue?