18 Apr 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhereas of course:
still obsessed with personalities, ouch.
"Drooling zombie"
"Crazeeeeeee zombie drooler"
"Propaganda merchant"
"Proper Serpent and Palfieslither and Snakejeester"
"Effhim"
Are all adjectives representing your spiritual depth.
That you describe your self as the "persecuted" "Ragged minstrel" is as hilarious as it is revealing of your lack of self awareness and humility.
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18 Apr 14
5 edits
Originally posted by googlefudge
The fact that you get pissed-off by the suggestion that we should perhaps use
gender-neutral language when talking about a non-gender specific group of people,
and not by default leave out half of our species is a good enough reason to keep
making the point.
Particularly when talking to people promoting a religion that goes out of it's way to
...[text shortened]... against women.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQC98pWH-DI&feature=player_detailpage#t=97
The fact that you get pissed-off by the suggestion that we should perhaps use gender-neutral language when talking about a non-gender specific group of people, and not by default leave out half of our species is a good enough reason to keep making the point.
Why are you bothered. I can only be explained physically. That was just the fissing of atoms and molecules in my brain. Right?
Do you get upset with the fissing and bubbling of atomic particles and the fireing off of electric charges in the grey matter ?
And that means you smart-ass
And you called me a "smart-ass". You better get more acquainted with your biology and update your speech to be more animal friendly. An "ass" is a perfectly respectable animal. You stereotype a fine product of evolution by using the donkey - "ass" in a negative guise.
What is wrong with an intelligent donkey anyway ... a so-called "smart-ass"?
You're using bio-unfriendly language in today's enviromental friendly elightenment and casting dispersions on a whole family of animals.
The donkey or ass, Equus africanus asinus,[1][2] is a domesticated member of the horse family, Equidae. The wild ancestor of the donkey is the African wild ass, E. africanus. The donkey has been used as a working animal for at least 5000 years. There are more than 40 million donkeys in the world, mostly in underdeveloped countries, where they are used principally as draught or pack animals. Working donkeys are often associated with those living at or below subsistence levels. Small numbers of donkeys are kept for breeding or as pets in developed countries.
A male donkey or ass is called a jack, a female a jenny or jennet;[3][4][5] a young donkey is a foal.[5] Jack donkeys are often used to produce mules.
Asses were first domesticated around 3000 BC, probably in Egypt or Mesopotamia,[6] [7] and have spread around the world. They continue to fill important roles in many places today. While domesticated species are increasing in numbers, the African wild ass and another relative, the onager, are endangered. As beasts of burden and companions, asses and donkeys have worked together with humans for millennia.
https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=Av.b6gcP8aE3lhKIxi1Ej4CbvZx4?p=donkey+&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-324
18 Apr 14
"Spirituality: Debate and general discussion of the supernatural, religion, and the life after." -Russ
Why the frequent fixation on the real or imagined shortcomings of other contributors to this forum rather than the suggested topics? Lack of interest in spirituality? Refusal to face into life realities? Thin skinned emotional/social immaturity? Other?
18 Apr 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyOther: your supposed "...actively applying myself to understanding how atheists think and view the world" thing is quite clearly bogus ~ as a quite large number of posters have pointed out ~ and frequently it is an insult to the intelligence and community spirit of many people who come here too. If you don't receive feedback on your shortcomings, Grampy Bobby, what hope is there of you ever contributing here in a way that adds genuine value and interest to this forums comings and goings.
Why the frequent fixation on the real or imagined shortcomings of other contributors to this forum rather than the suggested topics? Lack of interest in spirituality? Refusal to face into life realities? Thin skinned emotional/social immaturity? Other?
18 Apr 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyMy interest in understanding Christianity from a theological standpoint is very limited. My interest in understanding the psychology of why Christians are Christian and what can be done about the delusion, is significant.
May I ask the reciprocal question: how active an interest do you have in understanding Christianity?
18 Apr 14
Originally posted by sonshipSo, sonship, are you satisfied with my explanations so far? Do you have questions of clarification or further information?
Come out and start explaining your position without asking for more volumes of speculation from him, why don't you?
You want to be listened to. Start talking. We'll shut up and listen.
If so, I am still ready to answer any questions you have as fully and honestly as you wish.
If not, are you now willing to answer any questions about your own understanding of what the soul is, or are you still too worried about making an embarrassing blunder to venture any information?
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18 Apr 14
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadI will get a chance to look over all the submissions of this thread today, including yours.
So, sonship, are you satisfied with my explanations so far? Do you have questions of clarification or further information?
If so, I am still ready to answer any questions you have as fully and honestly as you wish.
If not, are you now willing to answer any questions about your own understanding of what the soul is, or are you still too worried about making an embarrassing blunder to venture any information?
Do you still have Youtube limitations? And did you view any of JP Moreland's rather long but effective lecture on "Evidence for the Existence of the Soul" ?
18 Apr 14
Originally posted by twhiteheadTo me the soul is the immaterial and the body is the material. The soul is the intermost being of a person that is sometimes referred to as the heart and mind.
So, sonship, are you satisfied with my explanations so far? Do you have questions of clarification or further information?
If so, I am still ready to answer any questions you have as fully and honestly as you wish.
If not, are you now willing to answer any questions about your own understanding of what the soul is, or are you still too worried about making an embarrassing blunder to venture any information?
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18 Apr 14
2 edits
Originally posted by twhitehead
I don't think there is one (depending on how it is defined). I certainly don't think there is anything in the brain that transcends death.
[b]Yea. But how about you come out of that walled up fortress of agnosticism and vagary just waiting for us to be inconsistent ?
In what way do I have a 'walled up fortress of agnosticism and vagary'?
I have a ...[text shortened]... istency. [/b]
Are your beliefs inevitably inconsistent? If so, why? Shouldn't you be concerned?[/b]
I don't think there is one (depending on how it is defined). I certainly don't think there is anything in the brain that transcends death.
Okay. I too have no experience of death yet so I cannot say. However, the credibility of one Jesus of Nazareth has considerable weight with some of us.
Do you believe that everything that is true to the brain is true about the soul ?
Can I collect the memory you have of your 18th birthday and put them under a microscope to view or place in a test tube ?
Why not if consciousness and brain are the same thing ?
My thought can be true or false. But brain states cannot be true and false. You do not believe in God's existence. That could be true or false. But the chemical reactions and neurons fireing off in your brain are neither true or false.
So the thought and the brain state cannot be identical.
Is an electron true or false?
But a belief can be true or false.
Though thought and brain states are related they cannot be the same thing. Something that is true for consciousness is not always true for the brain.
The law of identify determines that if something is true for A which is not true for B then A and B cannot be identically the same thing. So I question your implication that the soul is no more than the brain.
.... is just more waiting for some inevitable inconsistency.
Are your beliefs inevitably inconsistent? If so, why? Shouldn't you be concerned?
In this case not so to the point that I discard what I do comprehend. The limitation of human language and the limitation of what I know does not mean that the portion that I do know is false.
A 100% consistent series of concepts is not necessarily true.
And spiritual life is like natural life. As I grow spiritually I expect understanding will increase.
Some things related to me as a child by an older person were incoherent until further human maturity was secured. There was a limitation upon the conversations which could take place between me and a much older person. As well there are limitations in communication between me and my niece or nephew much younger than me. There still can be love and respect between us.
I read some things in the Bible and in the spiritual experiences of saints of God which have been not deeply understood for a time. Latter they became better understood. I suspect that the process will continue.
But the Bible has the job of communicating with all levels of spiritual and natural development. So there is something there for all levels. And some concept not 100% explicable now do not terribly trouble me. I expect consistency will encrease.
I think I am on the right track though some things do not have mathematical like consistency in my understanding.
I am not just my body and my brain. I do not believe that you are only your body and your brain.
A further word: I do not think that the unknown of DEATH is the sole and only reason for me to draw close to Jesus Christ. I do not want anyone to think that Christ is the God of death. He is the God of life. And even if death was the end of me I still find excellent reasons that Jesus Christ is precious and worthy of my love regardless.
It so happens that I do believe that He is as He said "the resurrection and the life." But the sheer value and worth of the Person is enough to attract me when no one else is quite so worthy of me wanting to know.
Oh, to know Him is of course to believe that He is available and that is because of resurrection and victory over death. It so happens that His death and resurrection is a gateway into me following Him in the same experience according to what He taught.
Now if you are just your brain then you are only fissing of chemicals and electrons firing off and you probably have no moral responsibility. There is no bad atoms. There are no good atoms. So if you are just your brain and your central nervous system then you are an amoral machine I think. That is pure determinism. Am I right ?
Then you have no free will and no moral responsibility. And conversely you have no ground to be unhappy to be "evil" behavior. And no real happiness with "good" behavior makes any sense either at the end of the day.
The soul may NEED the brain to work and work well. That does not mean that the SOUL is the BRAIN. To drive your car you need the steering wheel and other functions of the car to work properly. If they do not you cannot drive where you wish. That does not prove that YOU are the CAR. The driver and the car are related but are not the same thing.
We need our brain to work properly. But if it were impaired that does not mean the soul is the brain. The soul is limited because it cannot use the brain to its best advantage as it wills.
18 Apr 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipNo, I do not have youtube limitations any more. I will be happy to watch the video if you agree to discuss any criticisms I have of it, or clarify any questions I have.
Do you still have Youtube limitations? And did you view any of JP Moreland's rather long but effective lecture on "Evidence for the Existence of the Soul"
Do you agree with the contents of the video?
[edit]
Its an hour long, so I want to be sure it worth investing my time hence my conditions above.
18 Apr 14
Originally posted by sonshipI am not sure what you mean by the word 'soul' as you have not given any definition. I will guess from what you say later on in your post, but I could be wrong, so feel free to correct me if I misunderstand what you mean by 'soul'.
Do you believe that everything that is true to the brain is true about the soul ?
To answer the question, I believe my thoughts and consciousness are a pattern that arises from the brain. I will give more detail as the post progresses.
Can I collect the memory you have of your 18th birthday and put them under a microscope to view or place in a test tube ?
In theory, yes. Or rather the patterns that store that memory could be found and decoded to give the memory. Just like you will not see the meaning behind the words in this post under a microscope, but you could see the words.
Why not if consciousness and brain are the same thing?
Consciousness arises from the brain, it is not the same thing as the brain. So for example, hurricane Katrina arose from moving air, but it is not the same thing as moving air, it is a complex pattern in that air. Also the words in this post you see on the screen are more than just the shapes of the pixels but also carry information which can be copied and sent via the internet.
In theory, one could copy a brain, and my consciousness could be moved to another physical entity. So in that sense, I am separate from my brain.
Is an electron true or false?
But a belief can be true or false.
I agree, the information that is stored in matter constitutes something more than the matter itself. this is true for all information, even computer programs, writing, or foot prints in the sand.
But information can be copied, and information does not fit into neat little packages. If the soul is information, it should be possible to copy it, divide it, analyze it, change it etc.
I could for example change the memory you have of your 18th birthday. This is something that is known to be the case. Memories can be manipulated by manipulating the physical brain (which is where those memories are stored).
19 Apr 14
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadOriginally posted by twhitehead
My interest in understanding Christianity from a theological standpoint is very limited. My interest in understanding the psychology of why Christians are Christian and what can be done about the delusion, is significant.
My interest in understanding the psychology of why Christians are Christian and what can be done about the delusion, is significant.
I'd find the topics of "the psychology of why" and "the delusion" to be of considerable interest.
19 Apr 14
Originally posted by RJHindsRon, here the word "heart" in Strong's Concordance. Meaning of Kardia in the New Testament Koine Greek isn't the human organ that pumps and circulates blood but the mind which circulates information and thought (as stated in your post).
To me the soul is the immaterial and the body is the material. The soul is the intermost being of a person that is sometimes referred to as the heart and mind.
"Strong's Concordance: kardia: heart
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kardia
Phonetic Spelling: (kar-dee'-ah)
Short Definition: the heart, inner life, intention
Definition: lit: the heart; mind, character, inner self, will, intention, center.
HELPS Word-studies
2588 kardía – heart; "the affective center of our being" and the capacity of moral preference (volitional desire, choice; see P. Hughs, 2 Cor, 354); "desire-producer that makes us tick" (G. Archer), i.e our "desire-decisions" that establish who we really are.
[Heart (2588 /kardía) is mentioned over 800 times in Scripture, but never referring to the literal physical pump that drives the blood. That is, "heart" is only used figuratively (both in the OT and NT.]" http://biblehub.com/greek/2588.htm