Prove Jesus Never Taught of Eternal Punishment

Originally posted by RJHinds
Well, how about caughing one or two up for scrutiny.

Past experience has shown me the futility of engaging you in debate, so I respectfully decline.

It's just not worth the effort!

Originally posted by CalJust
When Jesus "descended into hell", that was the end of hell!

He "set the captives free" and "led captivity captive".

No more hell.

Caljust, AFTER the 1,000 year millennial kingdom it says that Death and Hades (Hell) will be thrown into the lake of fire -

Revelation 20:14 - "And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

This is after the death and resurrection of Christ by about 2,000 years + some unknown number of years + at least another 1,000 years.

How then can I believe that Hades {Hell} is no more as we speak?
Apparently, it is still around to be destroyed after the future millennial kingdom of 1,000 years.

Originally posted by sonship
Caljust, AFTER the 1,000 year millennial kingdom it says that Death and Hades (Hell) will be thrown into the lake of fire -

[b]Revelation 20:14 - "And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

This is after the death and resurrection of Christ by about 2,000 years + some unknown number of yea ...[text shortened]... parently, it is still around to be destroyed after the future millennial kingdom of 1,000 years.[/b]

As i said to RJH, it's just not worth the effort.

I clearly do not have the same interpretation of Revelation (or, for that matter, of much of Scripture) as you do, and I have no interest in changing your opinion on anything.

I probably made a mistake dropping in on this thread in the first place....

Originally posted by CalJust
As i said to RJH, it's just not worth the effort.

I clearly do not have the same interpretation of Revelation (or, for that matter, of much of Scripture) as you do, and I have no interest in changing your opinion on anything.

I probably made a mistake dropping in on this thread in the first place....

That is fine. These days I have a project going which will not allow me to spend a lot of time here.

But I assume that we are interested in ascertaining the truth.
And I only asked you a question and did not insist that you cry "Uncle!".

Lastly, you might be surprised at some things about this subject I would submit. Maybe.

Christ is the Victor.
May we let Him win over our whole heart in all things. Amen.

Originally posted by sonship

But I assume that we are interested in ascertaining the truth.

Well, not really. It is pretty clear that you are totally convinced that you HAVE the full truth, and that anybody who does not agree with you on any point is wrong. Not much "seeking" and "ascertaining" needed!

I would not begin to try to convince you that, as far as I can see and in my own searching for the TRUTH, the Christ of Christianity is far greater than the box the Christians have put him in!

Lastly, you might be surprised at some things about this subject I would submit. Maybe.

Again, well, not really. During the decades of the '70s and '80s I (unlike RJH) have read most, if not all, of Watchman Nee's books. Including The Spiritual Man, (all three volumes!), The Normal Christian Church Life, as well as Sit, Walk Stand, etc etc. Also, as followed from our previous lengthy discussion, I am pretty up to date with the Witness Lee and LC teachings. Your eschatology is predictable according to these teachings.

So, no, I do not think a discussion would be fruitful. Feel free to rest in your beliefs if you are comfortable with them.

Go in peace.

Originally posted by CalJust
Originally posted by sonship

But I assume that we are interested in ascertaining the truth.

Well, not really. It is pretty clear that you are totally convinced that you HAVE the full truth, and that anybody who does not agree with you on any point is wrong. Not much "seeking" and "ascertaining" needed!

I would not begin to ...[text shortened]... be fruitful. Feel free to rest in your beliefs if you are comfortable with them.

Go in peace.

Well, not really. It is pretty clear that you are totally convinced that you HAVE the full truth, and that anybody who does not agree with you on any point is wrong. Not much "seeking" and "ascertaining" needed!

Well, I think the Internet Discussion Forums seem to attrack people who are entrenched in their opinions and want to torture test them against criticism.

My view on biblical themes is much as Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 13 - We know in part and prophecy in part.

I think I know in part and prophecy incompletely - in part.

There are a few matters that I would hold to unto death.
But I don't think the subject under discussion is that vital.

But if you really wish to dismiss me as too dogmatic, go ahead.

I would not begin to try to convince you that, as far as I can see and in my own searching for the TRUTH, the Christ of Christianity is far greater than the box the Christians have put him in!

Hold it there please. My "box" within which I put Jesus Christ is larger than the known universe.

The New Testament describes the dimensions of the love of Christ as being the infinite dimensions of the universe -

" ... you being rooted and grounded in love, May be fukk of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the BREADTH and LENGTH and HEIGHT and DEPTH are and to know the knowledge surpassing love of Christ that you may be filled unto all the fulness of God." (Eph, 18b19)

I protest when you say "Oh sonship, you just have this skinny little Jesus, you see?"

No I do not have a skinny little Christ that fits into a tiny little box.
Where I meet there are Spanish speaking, Chines speaking, Korean speaking, and English speaking believers . Our natural cultures differ extensively.

But we are all tuned into a vast Christ whose marvelous dimensions are as high as "the HEIGHT" and as deep as "the DEPTH" etc. etc.
Our Christ is like the vastness of the universe.

This is why we can be one across the five continents on a multitude of cities - www.localchurches.org.

Though God is all-inclusive, sometimes He is definite about some things. He is not SO WIDE that we can love Satan and love Christ equally.

Anyway a definite Christ about some things, is not a narrow Christ squeezed into someone's box.

me:

Lastly, you might be surprised at some things about this subject I would submit. Maybe.

Caljust:
Again, well, not really. During the decades of the '70s and '80s I (unlike RJH) have read most, if not all, of Watchman Nee's books.

Well, I doubt that you have read that many writings. I think you probably read some key ones (so to speak). The Collected Works of Watchman Nee published by LSM is is a 70 volumes of books. Added to these you get a total of 150 books.

I think probably you did not read most of these books. Probably you read a number of CLC publications which are his more popular with the Christian bookstores.

Anyway, with what I think you read you would be more versed than RJHinds. Of that I am confindent.

Incidently, on the subject at hand I only recall Watchman Nee saying (I think in "The Gospel of God" that there seemed to be no fence around hell. He assumed that the pain of being OUT of hell in the presence of the light of God would be worse then being in hell.

If I recall rightly, Nee's thought was that hell is like a final escape. I tend to think he was probably on to something. I tend to view the destination of the lost as being the only escape from a God of light who will permeate the whole universe. And the pain of being in the presence of the truth would be so bad that the lost would prefer to seek refuge in the place absent of God and all blessing.

How do we know that when God fills all and all, the conscience of every created being who has rebelled will not CRY OUT for punishment ? How do we know that the being's conscience itself will not demand the relief of deserved retribution in the presence of such Light and Love ?

Including The Spiritual Man, (all three volumes!), The Normal Christian Church Life, as well as Sit, Walk Stand, etc etc. Also, as followed from our previous lengthy discussion, I am pretty up to date with the Witness Lee and LC teachings. Your eschatology is predictable according to these teachings.

We you the fellow from New Zealand or Australia who had a friend who wanted your home meetings to take the ground of the local church ?

Now I remember you.

So, no, I do not think a discussion would be fruitful. Feel free to rest in your beliefs if you are comfortable with them.

Go in peace.

When the Lord gets His way on earth, that will be our fullest peace.
Agape.

Originally posted by sonship

Well, not really. It is pretty clear that you are totally convinced that you HAVE the full truth, and that anybody who does not agree with you on any point is wrong. Not much "seeking" and "ascertaining" needed!

Well, I think the Internet Discussion Forums seem to attrack people who are entrenched in their opinions and want to torture t ...[text shortened]... . [/quote]

When the Lord gets His way on earth, that will be our fullest peace.
Agape.

What does this mean:

.May be fukk of strength to apprehend with all the saints.

Fukk of strength?

Is that some Watchman Lee cult slang ?

Sonship, just a quick question, please. Or actually two:

Do you think that there is any possibility whatsoever, that Jesus would one day pray concerning our own resident atheists (e.g. BigDog Problem, 667joe, FMF): "Father forgive them, for they knew not what they did"? Would Father answer that prayer?

If your answer is No, then could you explain why he would refuse THEM forgiveness, (since they were arguably conditioned by education, culture or whatever into their atheistic mindset out of ignorance,) rather than the active, knowledgable enmity and aggression which his Pharisaical Jewish tormentors demonstrated?

Please don't quote any scriptures or extracts from books, but just give me your own plain short and sweet opinion.

Originally posted by CalJust

Sonship, just a quick question, please. Or actually two:

Do you think that there is any possibility whatsoever, that Jesus would one day pray concerning our own resident atheists (e.g. BigDog Problem, 667joe, FMF): "Father forgive them, for they knew not what they did"? Would Father answer that prayer?

WHAT !?! Why He interceded for a big sinner like me.
Why not any of the people you named. You don't think some of us pray for these people ?

I am sure many names here are lifted up to God.

If your answer is No, then could you explain why he would refuse THEM forgiveness, (since they were arguably conditioned by education, culture or whatever into their atheistic mindset out of ignorance,) rather than the active, knowledgable enmity and aggression which his Pharisaical Jewish tormentors demonstrated?

Whew! Glad my answer is not "No".

Please don't quote any scriptures or extracts from books, but just give me your own plain short and sweet opinion.

Okay, For you no Bible quotation. But I will give you my honest answer.

The thought in some Christians that OTHERS simply HAVE to be given the same good fortune, haunts us. We realize the unimaginable good fortune that has come to us in Jesus, and we are haunted by the thought -

"Lord, It cannot be just me, Others simply HAVE to come see what You have shown me. "

Neatly side-stepped.

You feel that "some of us pray for these people" is the same as the Son of God asking the Father to forgive them.

Back to Jesus on the cross:

1. Do you think the Father answered his prayer concerning forgiving his killers?
2. If Yes, then what is the point of forgiving them THAT PARTICULAR SIN only, and then still sending them to hell for all their other sins?
3. Any chance that the Father may have forgiven them totally, since His Son was about to die for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD?
4. So do you think you will see Jesus' crucifiers in heaven?

Originally posted by sonship

Well, not really. It is pretty clear that you are totally convinced that you HAVE the full truth, and that anybody who does not agree with you on any point is wrong. Not much "seeking" and "ascertaining" needed!

Well, I think the Internet Discussion Forums seem to attrack people who are entrenched in their opinions and want to torture t ...[text shortened]... . [/quote]

When the Lord gets His way on earth, that will be our fullest peace.
Agape.

He may be more versed, but RJHinds is more inspired. 😏

Originally posted by Rajk999
What does this mean:

[b].May be fukk of strength to apprehend with all the saints.

Fukk of strength?

Is that some Watchman Lee cult slang ?[/b]

Ha ha. 😀

Originally posted by CalJust
Neatly side-stepped.

You feel that "some of us pray for these people" is the same as the Son of God asking the Father to forgive them.

Back to Jesus on the cross:

1. Do you think the Father answered his prayer concerning forgiving his killers?
2. If Yes, then what is the point of forgiving them THAT PARTICULAR SIN only, and then still sending them ...[text shortened]... may have forgiven them totally, since His Son was about to die for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD?

Why do you assume you know who the "THEM" is that Jesus was speaking of? Could it just be those Roman soldiers that were doing their assigned duty? It seems unreasonable to think that "THEM" could mean "ALL" that have ever sinned against God.

From Scripture we know that some sinners are destined for perdition in the "Lake of Fire and Brimstone" prepared for Satan and His demon angels. So even if the Father were to forgive "ALL" mankind, His word can not be broken and if anyone's name is not found written in the book of life, he will be thrown into the lake of fire.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

(John 3:16 NKJV)

So when the centurion, who stood opposite Him, saw that He cried out like this and breathed His last, he said, “Truly this Man was the Son of God!”

(Mark 15:39 NKJV)

So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

(Matthew 27:54 NKJV)

Originally posted by CalJust

Neatly side-stepped.

That's pretty feisty for someone who is above arguing.

The answer to your question was not side stepped if I understood it.

Christ already prayed for us all that we know not what we do, I believe.
And through continues to intercede for sinners.
His moving us Christians to pray for people is certainly an extension of this.

Now if this side stepping, it is as straightforward as I can reply in this much space.

You feel that "some of us pray for these people" is the same as the Son of God asking the Father to forgive them.

You sid you read a lot of Watchman Nee/ Did you ever read "The Prayer Ministry of the Church" by Nee ? If you had and really understood it I don't think you would count our prayers as not very significant.

Only God can dispense eternal forgiveness.
Our prayers can and should reflect what His will is.
He seeks petitioners on earth to echo His own desire.
And it is these kinds of prayers which are the power effective, the most powerful.

Our prayers are not insignificant. But only God Himself can bring a person to believe for eternal redemption.


Why don't you read "The Prayer Ministry of the Church" .

Back to Jesus on the cross:

1. Do you think the Father answered his prayer concerning forgiving his killers?

Yes. Those who BELIEVED into the Son.

God answered the prayer righteously. Free forgiveness would not be righteous. But forgiveness of those who believe INTO the One who performed the substiturionary death of atonement if righteous forgiveness.

From God's side there is no such thing as free forgiveness.

Here again, you boasted of reading so much of Watchman Nee. Did you ever read the two volume set "The Gospel of God" ? God's forgiveness must be righteous forgiveness. It is not a sloppy loose and sentimental forgiveness. It is forgiveness because the debt has been PAID.

2. If Yes, then what is the point of forgiving them THAT PARTICULAR SIN only, and then still sending them to hell for all their other sins?

I am not sure I understand you.

Christ died for all. But SUBSTITUTION takes place for only those who believe into Christ.

Universalism says that since Christ died for all, all will be saved.
The Bible says the Christ died for all. But the substitution only takes place to those who believe into Christ.

3. Any chance that the Father may have forgiven them totally, since His Son was about to die for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD?

I am not sure I understand you.

Christ died for ALL.
The substation of Christ dying for us takes place for those who believe into Christ.

4. So do you think you will see Jesus' crucifiers in heaven?

I do not think my eternal destiny is in Heaven.

And I expect to share the New Jerusalem and the new heaven and new earth with all those who have believed into Christ. That would include drivers of the nails, who believed. It would include soldiers who whipped Him, who believed. It would include priests who shouted out "Crucify, Crucify Him".

I expect to be surprised as others who see ME there will may also be surprised that I found redemption.

Atheists who finally repented, I expect to share New Jerusalem with.
Some of those who I am praying for in this very day, I expect God will also have mercy to bring to Himself.

If Jesus Christ saved me He can save anyone.

Originally posted by CalJust
Do you think that there is any possibility whatsoever, that Jesus would one day pray concerning our own resident atheists (e.g. BigDog Problem, 667joe, FMF): "Father forgive them, for they knew not what they did"?

I do not identify myself as an atheist. I am a non-religionist.