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Originally posted by twhitehead
Go back and read your own posts so far. Your responses to legitimate criticisms, or rather you lack of genuine response is what I take as not being serious.
[b]Everything related to Adam's relationship with God speaks of God's goodness.
Stating it over and over doesn't make it true, nor does it address peoples challenges to your claim.
And i ...[text shortened]... this, I do.
Yet when asked simple straight forward questions about it, you fail to answer.[/b]
Stating it over and over doesn't make it true, nor does it address peoples challenges to your claim.
Well, you have a liar telling Eve that God's heart is not good towards them. He also implies that God is out to limit them, that God does not have their best interest at heart. You have the serpent deceiving Eve that God is a despot or arbitrary tyrant.
These were lies. And if repeating it two or three times doesn't help, maybe you are beyond being helped.
He lied. And they died. And God's heart towards man was good - pure goodness as far as I can see.
And pure goodness is not without a kick in the seat of the pants sometimes. Discipline - just discipline for a published and plain warning followed.
If you side with the serpent and make him the truth teller and the good figure of the account, I don't know what can be done for such a warped opinion.
"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness. Who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. " (Isaiah 5:20)
Some people just have things turned around in their heads. God was good to Adam and Eve, yet not without just consequences.
And if you do not see the pure goodness of God in this, I do.
Yet when asked simple straight forward questions about it, you fail to answer.
Did you take a similar notice to the two or three simple questions not responded to yet by FMF?
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Originally posted by Great King RatHe is the highest authority.
Why should god be right to punish?
He punished Jesus for you. And Jesus was not only innocent but gloriously righteous. Yet He died for you.
When you believe in Christ, as God commands you to do, substitution takes place and your dept of sinning against the Highest Law Maker is paid in full.
Do you really think such a plan came out of the human imagination ?
I find it hard to think someone concocted Jesus Christ and placed fictitious teachings into that fictional mouth.
And Jesus is the One who said that His blood was being poured out for the forgiveness of sins. He said it.
After believing into Christ, if you were to sorrow and ask God to forgive you, He might say "I don't know what you are talking about. I don't remember your sins anymore."
As to eternal redemption He says - " I, even I, am He who wipes away your transgression for My own sake. And I will not remember your sins." (Isaiah 43:25)
Believe in the Son and your sins, which were filthy, deep, defiling, egregious, even abominable - are JUDGED on the cross of Christ. He will not remember them anymore because Justice has taken place at Calvary for them.
This is God's scheme. We did not invent it.
"For I will be propitious to their unrighteousnesses, and their sins I shall by no means remember anymore." (Hebrews 8:12)
Now here is the thing I want you to take note of. For this is of my deep personal experience and of the experience of many. When God is unhappy you also feel unhappy deep within. When God is happy with you, you ALSO will feel a deeper happiness within then you have ever known.
What I mean is that when your sins are cleansed by believing into Jesus Christ, you will sense a peace and a joy you never imagined. In that time God will become "My Father. My Daddy. Abba Father - my own dear Eternal Father."
Its really good !
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Nothing is like the Joy of coming out under God's created sky, looking up, and knowing that you have holy peace towards God.
And nothing is worth the sick feeling that will arise in your stomach on the day you realize too late that the Bible is truth.
Take the former.
Reject the latter.
Take the pure goodness that is the Person of the Son of God.
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13 Oct 14
Originally posted by divegeesterI don't hear from you necessarily that God is wrong to punish.
Where do you hear this? Here? From who?
I do hear from you, I think, that God is wrong to punish with a lake of fire that torments forever.
So I hear this from a number of posters yet in varying degrees of insistence. The title of a couple of threads certainly are tailored to induce the thought that an eternally punishing God is terribly evil.
Am I right ?
Now I think you would say something like - "But I never said God is wrong to punish."
I agree. But we have eternal punishment taught. Here you would probably say "That punishment is non-existence and annihilation."
To this I would say that wishful thinking aside, the New Testament does contrast "eternal life" with "eternal punishment" which IS an "eternal fire".
Any argument that that "eternal punishment" is not the "eternal fire" to be consistent has to argue that neither is God eternal or His kingdom eternal. And of course that won't work.
This thread is about the pure goodness of God. And I think we have to acknowledge that if there is a perfect goodness then there also must be a corresponding perfect ghastliness to the unreconciled transgressor.
Did you notice it ?
Psalm 18:26 -
New Living Translation
To the pure you show yourself pure, but to the wicked you show yourself hostile.
English Standard Version
with the purified you show yourself pure; and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous.
King James Bible
With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
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13 Oct 14
Originally posted by FMFDo you claim to have been sinless since you decided you wanted to believe some things different from me ?
I escaped from the ideology that you propagate [or some version of it] about a decade ago, perhaps a bit less. What "Satan"-inspired, rebellious "evil" acts do you imagine I have committed during that time, apart from having different beliefs from you?
Why ask me to examine only what the omniscient Righteous Savior and Judge of all the earth knows in infallible detail.
Why try to maneuver sonship to conduct the Great White Throne judgment before the time?
So if the gospel that you now claim to have graduated from turns out to be true, you'll take you life of the last 10 years as a boast before God ?
What about the part that says our righteousness is as filthy rags before Him ?
New Living Translation
We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our righteous deeds, they are nothing but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall, and our sins sweep us away like the wind.
English Standard Version
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Ten years of polluted garments and filthy rags you'll hold up as some kind of bragging before God? It is not before me you have to be justified. I'm as you are, a big fat sinner.
Now to be clear. I do not see a command that one has to believe in the lake of fire to be saved. No. I don't read that. I don't read that one has to believe in eternal punishment in order to be saved.
What I read is that one has to believe in the Son of God.
I wrote before about the "Jumbo Jesus". Say you are in a city which is about to go up in flames. You are told to get on the jumbo jet which will fly you out of the danger and to a safe place.
It is the jumbo jet that saves you whether you believe in the coming city wide doom or not. This is like the New Testament that I see. The requirement is not "Whoseever believes in hell shall not perish" It is whosover believes in the Son shall not perish."
Can you see the difference ?
If you get on the Jumbo Jesus He will transport you out of the danger.
The Jet does the saving.
It is not your belief in the city's destruction that saves you but getting on the Jet Plane.
So I try to be careful. I believe Revelation 20 and the other fearsome passages about the eternally lost. But the charge is to believe in, that is believe INTO Jesus Christ.
In a similar way - John 14:6 says that no one comes to the Father except through "Me" - the living Person of Jesus the Son.
There is a difference between "No one comes to the Father except through believing in damnation" and "No one comes to the Father except through Me."
The "Me" there is a living Person of the Son of God. I do not know ALL the conceivable ways the "Me" will save people into the Father. But if they DO come to the Father it will be because they came through the "Me" - the living Person of the Son of God.
This leaves me with an expectation that there will be many surprises as to whose names will be written in the book of life at the last judgment.
I am willing to bear the accusation of "bigot" or "narrow" in my association with Jesus. I will not stop to do as He says - preach the Gospel, because there are some unknowns as to difficult cases of various kinds applied to people around the world.
13 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipOr you are incapable of explaining something and all you know how to do is to repeat claims without explanation.
And if repeating it two or three times doesn't help, maybe you are beyond being helped.
If you side with the serpent and make him the truth teller and the good figure of the account, I don't know what can be done for such a warped opinion.
Then why did you bother with the thread in the first place? What do you hope to achieve if you are only willing to address those that already agree with you?
And do you think God is good merely because believing so is taking the side opposite to the serpent?
And considering that Adam and Eve took the side of the serpent, then was their situation hopeless too? Was there nothing God could have done about their warped opinions?
Did you take a similar notice to the two or three simple questions not responded to yet by FMF?
I didn't ask FMF any questions. If he is failing to answer your questions, take it up with him instead of trying to use it as an excuse for dodging questions yourself.
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Originally posted by twhitehead
Or you are incapable of explaining something and all you know how to do is to repeat claims without explanation.
[b]If you side with the serpent and make him the truth teller and the good figure of the account, I don't know what can be done for such a warped opinion.
Then why did you bother with the thread in the first place? What do you hope to a ...[text shortened]... ns, take it up with him instead of trying to use it as an excuse for dodging questions yourself.[/b]
Or you are incapable of explaining something and all you know how to do is to repeat claims without explanation.
I may not be capable of explaining some things.
Did I promise anyone that I was capable of explaining all things ?
Quote me where I said so please.
I do recall saying that with me there were some unknowns.
What do you suppose that implies?
If you side with the serpent and make him the truth teller and the good figure of the account, I don't know what can be done for such a warped opinion.
Then why did you bother with the thread in the first place? What do you hope to achieve if you are only willing to address those that already agree with you?
I am achieving what I set out to achieve. Expressing instances I believe reveal the pure goodness of God.
And to continue along this line I would mention that after God warns of death to Adam, and we see one by one by one all his descendents seem to have the same ailment of death set in, there is one exception.
In chapter five we read of the man Enoch who walks with God. And God takes Enoch to Himself. He simply eludes the death syndrome that is happening to everyone else.
Now I think this is for an example to future generations. God is willing even to go to the extent of taking some out of the world, who walk step by step with God. And this even though they have become constituted sinners from Adam's nature.
The example of Enoch whom God raptured shows the pure goodness of God.
Now as much as you may hate to see the goodness of God, to many of us it is there. "But I am not persuaded. Why write then ?"
You're not the only person to whom this thread was solely dedicated.
And do you think God is good merely because believing so is taking the side opposite to the serpent?
I think God is good whether we believe so or do not.
If so happens that the serpent did set himself up to be diametrically opposed to God.
And considering that Adam and Eve took the side of the serpent, then was their situation hopeless too?
No, otherwise the Bible probably would have concluded with chapter 3 of Genesis.
You should stop trying to insert words into people's mouths.
Was there nothing God could have done about their warped opinions?
You should stop trying to insert words into my mouth with your questions.
For the Devil there is indeed no hope.
He had his chance some time in the dim ancient past.
He is indeed beyond recovery.
Some human beings will join the Devil in being eternally beyond recovery it appears.
Let's see how you can cleverly flip this into a question. Maybe you can flip it and ask -
Does that mean everyone who disagrees with you is eternally unrecoverable ?
Or maybe something else. Get to work !
Did you take a similar notice to the two or three simple questions not responded to yet by FMF?
I didn't ask FMF any questions. If he is failing to answer your questions, take it up with him instead of trying to use it as an excuse for dodging questions yourself.
What question did I dodge that you answered ?
I dodged or I didn't merely regurgitate what you wish to insert into my mouth ?
Your dismissal of my answer doesn't mean to me a dodge on my part.
But you can point out exactly what question you asked that you say I dodged.
Question to you:
Who else has lived on the earth to express more pure goodness than Jesus Christ would you submit ?
Names? Remember we're talking about NOT dodging.
Names? A name of someone you think displayed more pure goodness than Jesus.
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God's pure goodness is manifested before the flood of Noah.
Now some may think God should not have judged.
But I think for Him to not judge would have been not righteous.
Before He does send the flood he has Enoch preach and Noah preach. Enoch is raptured before the flood. Enoch has a son with an unusual name. The name of his son was Methuselah.
Do you know who lived the longest human life on earth? Enoch's son Methuselah had the record - 969 years (Genesis 5:27)
His name means something like "When he dies it will come."
The "it" must be the judgment of the flood.
I think that the longest life was lived by "When he dies it will come" because God wanted to give man time and more time to repent to be saved from judgment.
I see God's pure goodness here. In His just righteousness He has to judge. But He extends the time as long as He possibly can for the offenders to repent. So He signaled to them "When he dies it will come". And he has Enoch walk with God as an example and preach reconciliation to God.
Pure divine goodness again seen in the first book of the Bible.
But when the longest living person, Methuselah died, the flood came.
It is an example to the latter world to learn from.
Judgment will be prolonged and held off. But it will eventually come upon the wicked world.
13 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipDo you claim to have been sinless since you decided you wanted to believe some things different from me ?
Why ask me to examine only what the omniscient Righteous Savior and Judge of all the earth knows in infallible detail.
Why try to maneuver sonship to conduct the Great White Throne judgment before the time?
So if the gospel that you now claim to have graduated from turns out to be true, you'll take you life of the last 10 years as a boast before God ?
What about the part that says our righteousness is as filthy rags before Him ?
Are you pretending [?] not to understand what it means when I say I escaped from the ideology that you propagate? "Sinless"? "The omniscient Righteous Savior"? "The Great White Throne Judgement"? "A boast before God"? "The part that says our righteousness is as filthy rags before Him"? You use this terminology in response to someone who has just told you he doesn't subscribe to the ideology that gives rise to them? And why are you referring to yourself in the third person?
13 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipA ghastly result exists to those whose names are not recorded in the book of life.
"Ghastly" is an appropriate expression for what has been a ghastly eternal sin.
Now, there have been a few questions from me to you which you have swept aside as you plow on with your probing for a problem in my belief.
To recount how many unanswered questions I put to YOU which you swept aside unnswered, I would have to go back and review. But I think since the start of this thread there have been at least two or three.
So before you plow on like a juggernaut with more examination, take a moment to respond to my couple of questions to you.
I think one involved the people who are deceived to rebel against God after the millennium. Why didn't blessing and mercy persuade them otherwise?
I think the other may have been do you think an ultimate evil act exists or not.
How is this in any way a response to the point I made? You are in hair dryer mode.
Originally posted by sonship to twhiteheadWhere? What questions?
Did you take a similar notice to the two or three simple questions not responded to yet by FMF?
To recount how many unanswered questions I put to YOU which you swept aside unnswered, I would have to go back and review. But I think since the start of this thread there have been at least two or three.
What questions?
13 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipDo you believe we humans, in our treatment of others, should also balance the goodness we are capable of with ghastliness that corresponds to it?
This thread is about the pure goodness of God. And I think we have to acknowledge that if there is a perfect goodness then there also must be a corresponding perfect ghastliness to the unreconciled transgressor.
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Originally posted by FMFTime for you to answer some questions I posed to you before you add more to me.
This question does not necessitate that you believe Christian theology per se. Do you believe that there could be a greatest evil act contrary to a greatest good ?
You can say Yes you do or No you do not without any jargon of my theology. That is unless you want to protest that you have no idea what I mean by good or evil.
Are you pretending [?] not to understand what it means when I say I escaped from the ideology that you propagate?
No. I am skeptical about you "escaping" knowing Jesus.
"Sinless"? "The omniscient Righteous Savior"? "The Great White Throne Judgement"? "A boast before God"? "The part that says our righteousness is as filthy rags before Him"? You use this terminology in response to someone who has just told you he doesn't subscribe to the ideology that gives rise to them?
What I don't do is assume no such things exist just because you say you no longer believe such things.
Besides, unless you no longer believe in good and evil you should have been able to answer my question about, could there be a greatest evil act.
And why are you referring to yourself in the third person?
Minor point of style.
The issue is not me or someone else.
Now here's a question that hardly calls for you to adopt theological jargon.
Since I am "joyless" please tell me what you experience which you think would greatly add to my joy.
What do you have that you think my lack of renders me joyless ?