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Originally posted by sonshipYes. Your ideology relies on a variation on 'might is right' and you have described one of the things that lies at its very heart as "perfect ghastliness" [to put it mildly; I think it is the most morally depraved notion humans have ever dreamt up]; you have also suggested that mankind should not take this brandishing of "perfect ghastliness" as an example of morally sound behaviour. So, the question I am asking ~ and which you are avoiding ~ is how can your own personal moral compass survive your voluntary subscription to such moral depravity?
Avoided what?
What need is there to "come back"?
This is avoided ?
Originally posted by FMFYour Argument from Apathy I suppose.
I am aware of how strong you feel about your beliefs. But your certainty has no effect on me. I have no compelling reason to think that he didn't live. But you give me no compelling reasons to subscribe to your claims about his divinity or his "meaning".
Originally posted by sonshipNo at all. I just do not share your beliefs and the way you believe your beliefs impact reality, anyone's, let alone mine. You give me no compelling reasons to subscribe to your claims about the divinity of Jesus. "Apathy" doesn't come into.
Your Argument from Apathy I suppose.
Originally posted by FMFI know how strongly you believe this but it has no effect on me. I do not subscribe to your belief.
I will copy paste it here again as you are ignoring it and simply asking the question again: I think torturing billions of people in burning agony for eternity for not believing something could be the deepest, darkest, greatest possible evil thing I have ever heard anyone come up with. I have no reason to think it actually happens of course; but as an element of ...[text shortened]... s", it pretty much takes the biscuit.
As I asked you before: does that answer your question?
Trillions of creatures, Ga-zillions of creatures who will not be reconciled to their Creator consciously, intelligently, have chosen to reject the Source of all blessing.
I have no reason to think Jesus would have taken seriously that He could die for the sins of the world that the world be saved from judgment unless there was something to it.
In spite of your apathy, I don't see Jesus as a man who was self deceived.
Rather I see Him as more likely to have had the know about what actually is.
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Originally posted by sonshipWhat "apathy"? I was a Christian for many years and my beliefs changed. How can having different beliefs from you be described as "apathy"?
In spite of your apathy, I don't see Jesus as a man who was self deceived.
Rather I see Him as more likely to have had the know about what actually is.
Originally posted by sonshipYou having "no reason to think Jesus would have taken seriously that He could die for the sins of the world that the world be saved from judgement unless there was something to it" does not affect me. You stating that you feel you have no reason to believe something different from what you believe is not information that affects the person you are talking to.
I have no reason to think Jesus would have taken seriously that He could die for the sins of the world that the world be saved from judgment unless there was something to it.
Originally posted by FMFAnother moral compass question re-asked ?
Yes. Your ideology relies on a variation on 'might is right' and you have described one of the things that lies at its very heart as "perfect ghastliness" [to put it mildly; I think it is the most morally depraved notion humans have ever dreamt up]; you have also suggested that mankind should not take this brandishing of "perfect ghastliness" as an example of mo ...[text shortened]... can your own personal moral compass survive your voluntary subscription to such moral depravity?
I believe that there is a Last Judgment where God will assign the state of every human beings moral compass.
Today my moral compass will not let me go against my conscience.
And my conscience tells me that God exists and that Jesus Christ manifests this God like no other who has lived.
Since my conscience won't let me get off denying this, I have to take the words of this Person seriously - all of them.
That includes some that make me feel comfortable and some that make me feel dread.
You asked me and that's my answer. Replying that you don't subscribe to this or that or are not compelled to believe as I do, simply means to me -
"Don't try to preach to me."
I think you are the kind of person who may like to open your door to door knockers, invite them in, but for the sheer pleasure of throwing them out.
A kind of "Come preach to me so I can throw you away" must nourish some pleasure you derive talking with Christians.
As for "morally depraved notions" I am willing to be accused of being "morally depraved" for believing the words of the Bible.
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Now the questions that I have asked you, I have lost interest in your reply. I see you intend to avoid them.
So, I won't ask again. Let people muse on your failure to address what is your source of a greater joy to cheer me up is or whether you think a greatest possible offense could exist.
Originally posted by sonshipWith regard to the notion of the deliberate torture of billions of people in burning agony for all eternity for a thoughtcrime [and being described as "perfect justice"] being "morally depraved" I will accept your willingness to accept the accusation, regardless of how you attempt to pass it off.
As for "morally depraved notions" I am willing to be accused of being "morally depraved" for believing the words of the Bible.
Another instance of God's pure goodness I see in His patience with the declining culture of the Canaanites.
God told Abraham that the iniquity of the Amorites was not yet complete. It would be another 400 years at least of their rejecting their probably prophets and warners. I assume that they were not left without someone/s to warn them.
The downward decline would have to go on for another four centuries before they would be SO bad that a harshest judgment of conquest would take place.
Then they were given an additional 40 years to this as Israel wandered in the desert.
Believe it or not, in the books of Joshua I see God withheld judgment out of His goodness until an example would be made of a society so awful that the conquest of the land was the divine remedy.
Originally posted by sonshipSo, I won't ask again. Let people muse on your failure to address what is your source of a greater joy to cheer me up...
So, I won't ask again. Let people muse on your failure to address what is your source of a greater joy to cheer me up is or whether you think a greatest possible offense could exist.
I make no claim that I can make you happy or happier. What makes me happy has absolutely nothing to do with your apparent discomfort that I do not find the things you claim [about yourself, your God figure, me, and the whole of mankind] credible. It is you who is the self-styled proselytizer. I do not claim to be a proselytizer.
...or whether you think a greatest possible offense could exist.
I will copy paste the answer for the third? Fourth? time.
I think torturing billions of people in burning agony for eternity for not believing something could be the deepest, darkest, greatest possible evil thing I have ever heard anyone come up with. I have no reason to think it actually happens of course; but as an element of an ideology that passes itself off as the "most perfect goodness", it pretty much takes the biscuit.
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Originally posted by sonshipYes. How does the philosophy of wielding of "perfect ghastliness" and demented wrath and revenge in harness with "might is right" affect you as a free moral agent? If it does not contort and distort your moral compass, how can that be so?
Another moral compass question re-asked ?
Originally posted by sonshipYou can preach to me all you like. What I find interesting is your reaction to someone saying that they don't believe the same things as you do.
AYou asked me and that's my answer. Replying that you don't subscribe to this or that or are not compelled to believe as I do, simply means to me -
"Don't try to preach to me."