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Specifically for Christians who believe in a literal Hell. I've always assumed that you regarded it as existing in some other dimension or plane of reality. But recently I came upon some literature that suggests that some of you believe it's actually in the core of our own Earth.
What's the fundamentalist line on that?
Originally posted by KunsooI'm not a Christian Fundamentalist (which, I presume, you're using in a technical rather than derogatory sense), so I have no idea.
Specifically for Christians who believe in a literal Hell. I've always assumed that you regarded it as existing in some other dimension or plane of reality. But recently I came upon some literature that suggests that some of you believe it's actually in the core of our own Earth.
What's the fundamentalist line on that?
Just to clarify, though, what do you mean by "literal Hell"?
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Originally posted by lucifershammerI certainly don't mean it in a derogatory sense. I'm referring to the belief that the Bible is inerrant in all things stated therein, factual and moral. By "literal Hell" I mean an actual physical place with lots of flames and such, as opposed to a state of mind or some other manifestation of the liberal Christian's figurative approach to Hell.
I'm not a Christian Fundamentalist (which, I presume, you're using in a technical rather than derogatory sense), so I have no idea.
Just to clarify, though, what do you mean by "literal Hell"?
Originally posted by KunsooChristian Fundamentalists (or is Evangelical a better term these days?) believe a lot more than just Biblical literalism (and there are probably Biblical literalists who don't believe in some of the classical Fundamentals) -- but that's a sidebar.
I certainly don't mean it in a derogatory sense. I'm referring to the belief that the Bible is inerrant in all things stated therein, factual and moral. By "literal Hell" I mean an actual physical place with lots of flames and such, as opposed to a state of mind or some other manifestation of the liberal Christian's figurative approach to Hell.
Another side-note: Hell as an eternal state of soul is not a "liberal Christian's figurative approach to Hell" -- it's very much part of orthodox Christian belief going back centuries.
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Originally posted by lucifershammerWell, the liberals just describe it as separation from God, with the flames and all being symbolic rather than literal - the punishment being that you know what you're missing out on. So you sit around pretty much without hope for the grace. Hopefully you have a deck of cards or something.
Christian Fundamentalists (or is Evangelical a better term these days?) believe a lot more than just Biblical literalism (and there are probably Biblical literalists who don't believe in some of the classical Fundamentals) -- but that's a sidebar.
Another side-note: Hell as an eternal state of soul is not a "liberal Christian's figurative approach to Hell" -- it's very much part of orthodox Christian belief going back centuries.
Originally posted by KunsooRev 20
Specifically for Christians who believe in a literal Hell. I've always assumed that you regarded it as existing in some other dimension or plane of reality. But recently I came upon some literature that suggests that some of you believe it's actually in the core of our own Earth.
What's the fundamentalist line on that?
Satan's Doom
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Originally posted by KellyJayRevelation is typical of apocalyptic literature of the time, in that it includes all sorts of ominous imagery and portents, forecasts bad things ahead, and ultimately encourages the likely-persecuted reader/listener to hold fast and endure in faith.
Rev 20
Satan's Doom
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city h ...[text shortened]... anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
It's not a literal telling of the future, in other words. It's like a wish-fulfillment action movie, with the deus ex machina employed at the end. It's like a crappy Michael Crichton novel.
It probably was intended to encourage those suffering under persecution from this or that Roman emperor. Domitian, etc. Factuality has little to do with it.
Revelation is typical of apocalyptic literature of the time,
What is some of the other apocalyptic literature of the time? Could you indicate five or six other apocalyptic writings of the time to which you are comparing the book of Revelation? (That is non-Christian liturature NOT based on New Testament teachings.)
in that it includes all sorts of ominous imagery and portents, forecasts bad things ahead, and ultimately encourages the likely-persecuted reader/listener to hold fast and endure in faith.
It's not a literal telling of the future, in other words.
The book of Revelation takes the lead to inform us that the prophecy is being made known to the reader by "signs" (Rev. 1:1)
So the author informs the reader in the first couple of sentences that there is symbolism in the writing.
So some things are symbolic and some things are to be taken literally. For example, that Jesus is called the Lamb is symbolic. It doesn't mean that he has four feet and a tail. However, that Jesus is disccribed as the eternally reigning King as God's Son is not symbolic. That is to be taken literally as the rest of the Bible would also affirm.
It's like a wish-fulfillment action movie, with the deus ex machina employed at the end.
The tenth chapter discribes prophecy symbolically pictured as a little scroll to be eaten. We are told that it will be sweet in the mouth but bitter in the stomach. This seems to indicate that on one level the fulfullment of the vision will be sweet, yet on another level it will not be without some uncomfortable consequences. See Revelation 10:8-11.
I think this is different and more realistic than a mere "wish-list."
It's like a crappy Michael Crichton novel.
Well, that's your opinion. But it has been on the world wide best seller list for a long time.
And I am pretty sure that you don't know much about the intricate structure of the book of Revelation. I think you have never appreciated the design of the book. It certainly does not come over like "a mad-man's dream" to those who carefully study the design and structure of the book of Revelation.
It probably was intended to encourage those suffering under persecution from this or that Roman emperor. Domitian, etc. Factuality has little to do with it.
I see nothing basically improper about that if it was.
I also see a consistency between the circumstances of those believers with other followers of God in other ages covered in the Bible.
Could you briefly review for us the design of the relationship of the visions with one another in Revelation ? How are they structured?
Originally posted by blakbuzzrd"It's not a literal telling of the future, in other words. It's like a wish-fulfillment action movie, with the deus ex machina employed at the end. It's like a crappy Michael Crichton novel. "
Revelation is typical of apocalyptic literature of the time, in that it includes all sorts of ominous imagery and portents, forecasts bad things ahead, and ultimately encourages the likely-persecuted reader/listener to hold fast and endure in faith.
It's not a literal telling of the future, in other words. It's like a wish-fulfillment action movie, wit ...[text shortened]... secution from this or that Roman emperor. Domitian, etc. Factuality has little to do with it.
You know this, how?
Kelly
What is some of the other apocalyptic literature of the time? Could you indicate five or six other apocalyptic writings of the time to which you are comparing the book of Revelation? (That is non-Christian liturature NOT based on New Testament teachings.)
Sure. There's actually a fair number of Jewish writings in the apocalyptic mode. Mostly, these flourished in the two centuries BC, and were perpetuated by Jewish zealots in service of fostering revolt. The Romans crushed them repeatedly, of course.
Such books include but are not limited to:
- I Enoch
- Daniel (probably written in the 2nd century BC)
- The Sibylline Oracles
- 2 Baruch
And in the extra-canonical (read: books Christians now reject which were earlier accepted) xian tradition:
- The Shepherd of Hermas
- The Apocalypse of Peter
10 seconds on searching on Google will produce a more exhaustive list. Listing them, of course, signifies nothing. What's your point?
The book of Revelation takes the lead to inform us that the prophecy is being made known to the reader by "signs" (Rev. 1:1)
So the author informs the reader in the first couple of sentences that there is symbolism in the writing.
So some things are symbolic and some things are to be taken literally. For example, that Jesus is called the Lamb is symbolic. It doesn't mean that he has four feet and a tail. However, that Jesus is disccribed as the eternally reigning King as God's Son is not symbolic. That is to be taken literally as the rest of the Bible would also affirm.
I'll agree that Christians say the Bible affirms it. But in the context of the genre, what would be the use-value of this book for late 1st-century xians? What would they use it for?
The tenth chapter discribes prophecy symbolically pictured as a little scroll to be eaten. We are told that it will be sweet in the mouth but bitter in the stomach. This seems to indicate that on one level the fulfullment of the vision will be sweet, yet on another level it will not be without some uncomfortable consequences. See Revelation 10:8-11.
I think this is different and more realistic than a mere "wish-list."
Me too. But then, I didn't say "wish-list," I said "wish fulfillment." There's a big difference. The former is what you use to ask Santa Claus for loot in December. The latter has to do with stating something that you hope will come to pass. It can be couched in the context of realistic discomfort.
But it has been on the world wide best seller list for a long time.
That's the Bible as a whole. We're talking about one text included therein.
But, since the synecdoche's been duly noted, let me just add that popular doesn't mean good. That's like the advertising fallacy where the ad says "a bazillion people have switched to our product. Therefore you should, too!"
McDonald's subtitle on their sign that reads "billions and billions served" doesn't change the fact that the food is not fit for dogs (except for those fries. Yum!)
Closer to home, Dan Brown's bumwipe of a novel The DaVinci Code was a bestseller. It's still only almost good enough to line my cat's litter tray.
And I am pretty sure that you don't know much about the intricate structure of the book of Revelation. I think you have never appreciated the design of the book. It certainly does not come over like "a mad-man's dream" to those who carefully study the design and structure of the book of Revelation.
Okay, let's pause for a sec. I don't question that Revelation exhibits evidence of authorial design. Nor do I suggest that it was "a mad-man's dream" (BTW, that quote doesn't refer to Revelation in its original context, but rather the xian faith as a whole). That's because I see it as an example of a certain genre of literature. I'm all for appreciating its literary intricacies, such as they may be. I personally think the book is a crummy read.
I see nothing basically improper about that if it was.
Again, you infer where the implication is absent. I didn't say it was improper.
I also see a consistency between the circumstances of those believers with other followers of God in other ages covered in the Bible.
Please elaborate. In what sense(s) are the circumstances of the believers posited in Revelation consistent with the circumstances of the followers of God in other ages?
Could you briefly review for us the design of the relationship of the visions with one another in Revelation ? How are they structured?
Spirally. That is, although nominally the sequences of images occur one after the other, they function not as descriptions of what will happen in time, but as repetitive amplifiers of the idea that tribulations are going to descend. So you don't say "Ah, so the seven trumpets represent all kinds of hell breaking loose. Oh, and after that, these seven bowls indicate seven more kinds of hell breaking loose here. And right after the trumpets, too!" Instead, you say, "this guy's really trying to drive home the message that things are going to get really bad, and that a lot of those things are because God is pouring at wrath is about to descend, and I can see now on the third go round that it's all ultimately from God's hand, because of the bazillion sevens and threes in the images."
What's your take?
Originally posted by KunsooHell is where Jimi Hendrix, John Lennon and Oscar Wilde reside. It's a place of great parties, lots of drugs and booze without hangovers.
Specifically for Christians who believe in a literal Hell. I've always assumed that you regarded it as existing in some other dimension or plane of reality. But recently I came upon some literature that suggests that some of you believe it's actually in the core of our own Earth.
What's the fundamentalist line on that?
The great plus of it all is that there's no Cliff Richard and no FFing christians!