Question for hell doubters

Originally posted by divegeester
I've never questioned that there will be judgement - I think you are deflecting from the point of what YOU think that the outcome of that judgement will be.

So you think there will be punishment but that the said punishment will not be eternal?

Essentially, you think people can be "punished" into repentance?

Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

Originally posted by FMF
What do "negative views in general of Jews passed down over the centuries" have to do with me? What does this have to do with your ideology of "eternal torture" for people who disagree with you?

As I've said, you are an opponent of zionism because you feel them to be unjust.

What then should be done to judge them by the Almighty? Should they be "punished" in some way?

Originally posted by whodey
Which good works earn you eternal life? How many must you do? How many did the theif dying next to Jesus do before dying on the cross and going to heaven with Jesus?

Here is the answer from Christ.

.. Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. .. this do, and thou shalt live. (Luke 10:25-28 KJV)

Christ said your eternal life is based on 2 things .. LOVE GOD AND DO GOOD WORKS. Do you not claim to believe in Christ? What is your interpretation of what the word 'believe' means. Is it just to claim belief or to actually believe what Christ says and to follow Christ commandments?

Which Good works? - All that Christ commanded chief of which is the showing of brotherly and charitable love.
How much ? If you have to ask then maybe you dont deserve eternal life. The simple answer is do good works as long as you have life in your body.
The thief on the cross - He did good works from the time he met Christ right up until his death.

Christians have to do the same. From the time of their conversion or baptism or born again or accepting Christ, right up until they die... they MUST do good works, refrain from sin, live righteously, otherwise they would be rejected by CHrist. Let me know if you want references to support that.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Here is the answer from Christ.

.. Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. .. this do, and thou shalt live. (Luke 10:25-28 KJV)

Christ said your eternal ...[text shortened]... otherwise they would be rejected by CHrist. Let me know if you want references to support that.

If Christ is in control of your life good works will naturally follow, but those works are not what saves you.

Doing good works is just expected, it has nothing to do with earning eternal life.

Originally posted by whodey
If Christ is in control of your life good works will naturally follow, but those works are not what saves you.

Doing good works is just expected, it has nothing to do with earning eternal life.

Lets see if you can understand this :

I AGREE, YES .. ITS CHRIST THAT SAVES. Nobody is arguing that. So Christ saves and Christ decides who gets eternal life and who gets thrown into the Lake of Fire. That is the part you are ignoring. CHRIST DECIDES.

How will Christ decide is the issue. He said it very clearly how he will decide who gets eternal life.
I already quoted you Christ words about who gets eternal life.
Let me know if you need me to repeat it.

Here are some of those who will NOT get eternal life:
- Those who believe with their mouth only ie there is no change of heart and mind.
- Those who only call upon him ..'Lord Lord', without obeying his commandments.
- Those who persistently carry on with a worldly sinful lifestyle.

As for this statement you made :

If Christ is in control of your life good works will naturally follow.

Thats a pile of mumbo-jumbo, a fabricated doctrine designed to fill the churches and bank accounts of the pastors. It is a doctrine of a fool. I have heard many a Christian make that claim .." I believe in Christ and Im born again therefore all that I do is good works. I cannot sin .. etc etc

You are welcome to prove that that doctrine exists in the Bible. I have asked many on this site to justify that statement with references in the Bible and they cannot.

Here is how I know you cannot find that doctrine. Free will continues to exist even after accepting Christ and being born again. People can still sin and go astray even after they are given the Holy Spirit and they can and do fall away and lose their eternal life. The Devil/Satan was given the power of God to do good but instead used it for evil. Same with all of Satans followers/angels.

I can provide clear references for all that I say. Let me know if you need them.

Originally posted by whodey
So you think there will be punishment but that the said punishment will not be eternal?

Essentially, you think people can be "punished" into repentance?

Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

Really? As though you've not seen me posting about this for weeks across several threads.

Originally posted by divegeester
Really? As though you've not seen me posting about this for weeks across several threads.

Are you going to make me read through them all to find it?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Lets see if you can understand this :

I AGREE, YES .. ITS CHRIST THAT SAVES. Nobody is arguing that. So Christ saves and Christ decides who gets eternal life and who gets thrown into the Lake of Fire. That is the part you are ignoring. CHRIST DECIDES.

How will Christ decide is the issue. He said it very clearly how he will decide who gets eternal lif ...[text shortened]... rs/angels.

I can provide clear references for all that I say. Let me know if you need them.

Just so we are clear, my righteousness is as filthy as rags. It is only when I place my faith in a God who is righteous, can I then become righteous.

It's like the theif on the cross dying next to Jesus or the prostitute in Jericho who gave safe haven to the Hebrew spies, once they placed their faith in God they became righteous. Up until that time they had not earned it in any way.

Originally posted by whodey
As I've said, you are an opponent of zionism because you feel them to be unjust.

What then should be done to judge them by the Almighty? Should they be "punished" in some way?

Supposed punishment "by the Almighty" is for religionists to imagine, codify and threaten, not me.

Originally posted by whodey
Hell meaning seperation from God in the next life.

THAT I would welcome. I personally want nothing to do with a vindictive jealous god who killed billions of land animals to get to a few thousand humans. That is insane behavior in my opinion and more of the actions of a technologically advanced being with no scruples to use its technology to its own sick ends. This is not the action of a god.

Originally posted by whodey
So you think there will be punishment but that the said punishment will not be eternal?

Essentially, you think people can be "punished" into repentance?

Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

Ok I'll play along.

Firstly a punishment that is eternal, is not the same as eternal suffering. The second death is just that, death that is forever. Not forever alive in an incinerator.

No. The gospel is about love and peace and life. It's about god paying the price for mans sin and the gift of eternal life being free.

I struggle with this one ......I think the bible seems a bit ambiguous on what hell actually is ...eternal punishment or eternal death ...does it mean ones soul will indeed be punished forever ? or does it mean destroyed and a death that is forever like annihilation and ceasing to exist ? The bible talks about the second death ......It's obvious that there is a place that is to be shunned ....part of me believes that is a merciful God ( and I believe He is regardless )going to have a place where people are being eternally punished forever ? while ones in bliss will continue in bliss knowing that there are souls somewhere being eternally punished ? I do know in a sense Hell is a place where God is not and it's being away or out of the love grace and presence of God not a good place

Manny

Originally posted by whodey
Just so we are clear, my righteousness is as filthy as rags. It is only when I place my faith in a God who is righteous, can I then become righteous.

It's like the theif on the cross dying next to Jesus or the prostitute in Jericho who gave safe haven to the Hebrew spies, once they placed their faith in God they became righteous. Up until that time they had not earned it in any way.

All righteousness is filthy rags is correct. But how does that relieve the Christian of the responsibility to follow the commandments of Christ or to do good works which are required by Christ ?

Can you explain this or provide some references?

It is only when I place my faith in a God who is righteous, can I then become righteous.

You seem to have a set of catchphrases that you hear in the church but you dont seem to be able to provide some Biblical support for them.

Originally posted by Rajk999
All righteousness is filthy rags is correct. But how does that relieve the Christian of the responsibility to follow the commandments of Christ or to do good works which are required by Christ ?

Can you explain this or provide some references?

[b]It is only when I place my faith in a God who is righteous, can I then become righteous.

You seem to ...[text shortened]... t you hear in the church but you dont seem to be able to provide some Biblical support for them.[/b]

In Genesis, Abraham is said to have placed his faith in God and it was counted as righteousness.

Naturally, if Abraham at any point decided not to place his faith in God, then he would revert back to being unrighteous.

As for Abraham's "good works", what were they? I say none of them earned him eternal life, rather, it was merely his continued walk with God in faith.

Originally posted by menace71
I struggle with this one ......I think the bible seems a bit ambiguous on what hell actually is ...eternal punishment or eternal death ...does it mean ones soul will indeed be punished forever ? or does it mean destroyed and a death that is forever like annihilation and ceasing to exist ? The bible talks about the second death ......It's obvious that there ...[text shortened]... not and it's being away or out of the love grace and presence of God not a good place

Manny

I believe the Holy Bible teaches that there are two different kinds of death. The first death that all experience is the death of the body. Once the body is dead, it can not experience pain, torment, or suffering. It just decays until it turns to dust. That would be annihilation and ceasing to exist. But that is not an eternal or everlasting death, because as Jesus rose from the dead, so shall He raise up all mankind, some to everlasting life and others to everlasting torment (Matthwe 25:46).

Therefore, I believe the second death in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone is not annihilation and ceasing to exist, like the first death, for how could Satan and His angels be tormented day and night forever and ever, if they were annihilated by the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, which is identified as the second death in Revelation?

See Revelation 14:11, 20:10, and 21:8.