Originally posted by jaywillI gather that you believe that it entails something more than uttering the words, "I believe into Christ" and something less than ceasing to commit acts of sin. I'm hoping that you'll be able to articulate just where one beomes "justified".
Believing unto a union of the Spirit of Christ with the human spirit.
[b]"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
Believing into the realm and the sphere of the living Person of Christ. The human spirit is joined to Christ the Spirit resulting in "one spirit".
The believer is united with Christ in the innermost being - one spirit with the Lord.[/b]
On the other hand I notice that you define it as being "one spirit with the Lord". I would think that truly being one with the Lord would preclude any acts of sin.
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I gather that you believe that it entails something more than uttering the words, "I believe into Christ" and something less than ceasing to commit acts of sin. I'm hoping that you'll be able to articulate just where one beomes "justified".
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In short the justification is a Person - Jesus Himself. You touch Him and you touch justification.
The redemption is in the Person Christ Himself. When you are joined to Him, with Him comes justification.
The entire salvation is a Person - Jesus Christ Himself.
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On the other hand I notice that you define it as being "one spirit with the Lord". I would think that truly being one with the Lord would preclude any acts of sin.
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Our acts of sins have been judged by God in Christ on His cross. It is not that God has overlooked our sins. He has judged them in Christ on our behalf.
When you believe into the living Person of Christ that substitutionary judgment of your sins becomes yours.
"The spirit is life because of righteousness" (Roman. 8:10)
The innermost being of a woman or man, the human spirit, is reborn because righteousness has been imputed. For the spirit to be life simply means that Christ the divine life has been dispensed into the spirit making the believer "one spirit" with the Lord.
Life is given because there is now righteousness with the believer. The spirit is life because of righteousness.
Life is given by Christ who today is the life giving Spirit. "[T]he last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
In His resurrection Christ not only ascended to the right hand of God. He also transfigured Himself into a form in which He can be imparted into man - He became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)
It is marvelous. It is also mysterious. It is under God's control. He is eager and willing to save. We simply believe in Christ. We believe INTO Christ the living Person.
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Originally posted by jaywillMaybe I'm not being clear enough. You keep telling me what happens. What I want to know is, "when" does it happen? Or better yet, what does an individual have to do to make it happen? Does it take anything more than uttering the words, "I believe into Christ"? If so, what?
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I gather that you believe that it entails something more than uttering the words, "I believe into Christ" and something less than ceasing to commit acts of sin. I'm hoping that you'll be able to articulate just where one beomes "justified".
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In short the justification is to save. We simply believe in Christ. We believe INTO Christ the living Person.[/b]
Edit: Also, in the time before Jesus was crucified, He only taught salvation through righteousness, that is to say, He taught that one must cease to sin for "eternal life". While Paul claims to have visited with Jesus, it is only his claim. Also, Paul fits the description of a "false prophet" as described by Jesus. Why do you chose to follow the teachings of Paul, rather than the teachings of Jesus. Especially in the light of this warning from Jesus.
Matthew 7:15-20
"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits."
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThere are many ways in which a person can believe into Christ.
Maybe I'm not being clear enough. You keep telling me what happens. What I want to know is, "when" does it happen? Or better yet, what does an individual have to do to make it happen? Does it take anything more than uttering the words, "I believe into Christ"? If so, what?
I don't think it will be helpful to try to limit this act of believing into Christ to two or three or eight or ten specific methods.
I certainly would encourage one who wants to be saved to call on the name of the Lord Jesus, or pray, or confess and call. That does not mean that that is the only thing one can do.
I emphasized that God is eager and willing to justify us and impart Christ as righteousness to us.
I don't think I will say much more on what one has to do. It distracts from the truth that salvation is Christ, in Christ, and comes with Christ Himself.
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Originally posted by jaywillDoes that mean that there's no way for an individual to be able to know if he has salvation?
There are many ways in which a person can believe into Christ.
I don't think it will be helpful to try to limit this act of believing into Christ to two or three or eight or ten specific methods.
I certainly would encouge one who wants to be saved to call on the name of the Lord Jesus, or pray, or confess and call. That does not mean that that is th t distracts from the truth that salvation is Christ, in Christ, and comes with Christ Himself.
I'm not talking about any limitations. I'm interested in the bare minimum. If you don't know, just say, "I don't know".
Also, please see my edit above.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne================================
Does that mean that there's no way for an individual to be able to know if he has salvation?
I'm not talking about any limitations. I'm interested in the bare minimum. If you don't know, just say, "I don't know".
Also, please see my edit above.
Does that mean that there's no way for an individual to be able to know if he has salvation?
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One may not know. It is good if one does know.
It is better if one knows.
It may not always be the case that one knows right away.
You know that there is the milk of the word of God and there is the meat of the word. You should know that there are some things which are elementary and there are some things deeper for the more mature.
When I lead someone to Christ one the first things they should be helped to see is the assurance of eternal redemption. If they are unsure about this it will be hard for them to grow.
So the new believer who has been justified should first be helped to have the assurance of eternal redemption. I would consider this the milk of elementary teachings in God's new testament economy.
After a firm foundation in the assurance of eternal redemption is obtained then we go on to deeper lessons.
One of the deeper lessons is the matter of reward and punishment to those who have been eternally redeemed. You see, just because one is eternally redeemed and shall never perish forever does not mean that the wise Father cannot discipline them that they may partake of His holiness.
Therefore the Arminian school is too unclear about eternal redemption because they give people an unsure elevator salvation that goes up and down and up and down.
That is one extreme. The other extreme is the Calvinist view that a Christian can never be dealt with in a disciplinary way after the second coming of Christ.
These are two extremes. The truth is in the middle of the two extremes. Once you are born of God you can never be unborn of God. You will never perish forever. On the other hand God did not intend simply to give you a "ticket" to a happy place. He seeks that the growth of the divine life within would produce fruit in daily living.
Again, there is the judicial redemption. This is followed by the organic salvation. Having been reconciled judicially forever the believer must experience the "much more" of being saved in His life. That would be the fruit bearing, the living in the kingdom of the heavens, the living under God's administration and the expressing of the Christ within in daily life.
Also, please see my edit above.
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOne=================================
Maybe I'm not being clear enough. You keep telling me what happens. What I want to know is, "when" does it happen? Or better yet, what does an individual have to do to make it happen? Does it take anything more than uttering the words, "I believe into Christ"? If so, what?
Edit: Also, in the time before Jesus was crucified, He only taught salvation thr s cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits."
Matthew 7:15-20
"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits."
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The basic concept of the Gospel of Matthew is that people should repent for the kingdom of the heavens.
This means to repent for not living under the government of God. It means to repent for not living under the administration of God.
This is the first gospel in the sovereign arrangement of the four gospels in the NT. We are to repent for the kingdom.
This is different from repenting to be eternally redeemed. This is a little different. This repentence is a repentence from not being under God's government to living under God's government.
So the emphasis on fruit from living under God's government is so emphasized. This is more than repenting to meet my need to be saved. It is repenting to meet God's need to have a realm on earth in which He can excercise His administrative authority over His people.
The punishments discribed towards the servants of the Lord, ie, the parables in Matthew, do not mean eternal perdition. They mean temporary dispensational punishment. They mean the loss of reward. They do not mean the loss of eternal redemption.
There is the possibility to lose the reward. There is no possibility to lose the gift.
The reward relates to the millennial kingdom. The gift relates to the eternal age after the millennial kingdom - See Revelation 20 - 22.
Originally posted by PinkFloyd"As far as the east is from the west," He removes our past sins from us. How far is the east from the west? It is infinite.
Once we repent, we are forgiven, and God remembers our sins no more. I heard that just this past Sunday in class.
I am so so very thankful God gave me the ability to believe in Christ. My sins have been removed from me as far as the east is from the west.
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Originally posted by jaywill[/b]Did you completely miss my point for quoting Matthew 7:15-20? Here's the point again.
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Matthew 7:15-20
"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A go The gift relates to the eternal age after the millennial kingdom - See Revelation 20 - 22.
Paul fits the description of a "false prophet" as described by Jesus. Why do you chose to follow the teachings of Paul, rather than the teachings of Jesus. Especially in the light of this warning from Jesus.
One only need read Romans 7 to understand that Paul did not bear
"good fruit" and hence is a "false prophet".
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneEither you have a position on what John said and why or you don't. You either agree with it or you don't. It either fits with your theology or it doesn't.
We both know that you painted yourself into a corner with our discussion on John when you once again distorted my position. This is what you do in your attempts to "win a point". The bottom line is that you brought up John, you tried to make a big deal out of how "incoherent" my position was and when you had to face the fact that it is your postion that i ...[text shortened]... know my position. It's clear and it's explicit. I'm not interested in playing your games.
I will accept my position will come across to you as messy and incoherent because it does not fit into the neat colour by numbers theology most seem to go for. However, it's not me that's being catagorical here.
So are you able to reconcile the two statements below under a coherent belief system? .............
" Some seem to believe that all acts of sin "tarnish" the soul. It seems likely that it is this "tarnish" that John has in mind in 1 John 1:10. I have no particular problem with this concept, though I don't necessarily subscribe to it either. It's an interesting idea. I also have no reason to believe that this "tarnish" would prohibit one from "walking in the light"/"practicing righteousness".
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"My position is that one cannot continue to sin and have 'eternal life' / 'heaven' / 'salvation'."
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(BTW- It's difficult to "distort" a position that is not laid out clearly. Since I do not know what your full position is because you do not lay it out. Sure , you do say some things very definitely but then you neglect to say how thay fit in with anything else.)
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneComplete rubbish! This is a lie and a distortion of true Christianity.
Did you completely miss my point for quoting Matthew 7:15-20? Here's the point again.
Paul fits the description of a "false prophet" as described by Jesus. Why do you chose to follow the teachings of Paul, rather than the teachings of Jesus. Especially in the light of this warning from Jesus.
One only need read Romans 7 to understand that Paul did not bear
"good fruit" and hence is a "false prophet".[/b]
Why would God allow a false prophet to totally dominate and supercede the teachings of Jesus? Why go to all the effort of the incarnation and the cross etc only to have the vast majority of the message completely contaminated by this "false prophet"?
Countless millions (billions?) of Christians all mislead by Paul and God did nothing to preserve the truth? Not one counter messsenger to put the record straight?
Your God of Truth didn't fight very hard for the truth did he? The church Jesus said he would build didn't stand very long against the gates of hell.
This is just nonsense , plain and simple. The living active God that Jesus explicitly describes would never have allowed a false prophet to take such a vital central role in the early church.
Think it through Think of One.
If you have ANY answer to this problem let's hear it now.
Originally posted by knightmeisterWell, you got me here. I can't even come up with a guess as to what you might find irreconcilable between my two statements.
Either you have a position on what John said and why or you don't. You either agree with it or you don't. It either fits with your theology or it doesn't.
I will accept my position will come across to you as messy and incoherent because it does not fit into the neat colour by numbers theology most seem to go for. However, it's not me that's being c ...[text shortened]... ly but then you neglect to say how thay fit in with anything else.)
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Originally posted by knightmeisterI addressed this issue a week or two ago. At best, your memory is extremely poor and at worst you're playing your usual games. Why don't you look up my response? Or better yet, explain how Paul doesn't fit the description. The fact is that he does. You don't have an answer for it, so you have to resort to perhaps your most unsound argument yet (and that's saying something).
Complete rubbish! This is a lie and a distortion of true Christianity.
Why would God allow a false prophet to totally dominate and supercede the teachings of Jesus? Why go to all the effort of the incarnation and the cross etc only to have the vast majority of the message completely contaminated by this "false prophet"?
Countless millions (billi hink it through Think of One.
If you have ANY answer to this problem let's hear it now.