Originally posted by knightmeisterOnce again, Jesus doesn't say that "sin is bound to come" or that "sin cannot be overcome".
Jesus is making the point that tempting someone to sin is not acceptable. That there are enough temptations out there as it is. Jesus doesn't say that "sin is bound to come" or that "sin cannot be overcome". Jesus merely says that the temptations are bound to come. --ToO--------------
Now you are just misquoting him. Or possibly it's a rationalizati ...[text shortened]... that a man will repent many times and have to ask for forgiveness many times.
Someone can set the table for you to sin, but whether or not you eat is entirely up to you.
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Originally posted by epiphinehas1 John, 1:5-7
It's just my opinion, I don't think the meaning is ambiguous, that's all. "Working in a state of lawlessness." That means a life without conviction of sin and no repentance.
Would you care to respond to anything else?
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If God is light, then the absence of God is darkness (sin). There is no darkness (sin) at all in Jesus. You are a liar if you say you have fellowship with Jesus, yet walk in darkness (sin) at all.
The blood of Jesus cleanses you from all sin only if you walk in the light (God) as Jesus is in the light.
You have to walk the walk.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneYou are a liar if you say you have fellowship with Jesus, yet walk in darkness (sin) at all.
1 John, 1:5-7
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the ...[text shortened]... sin only if you walk in the light (God) as Jesus is in the light.
You have to walk the walk.
Well, I do sin from time to time, ToO. I'm not going to lie.
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us" (1 John 1:8-10).
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Out of curiosity, where does forgiveness fit into your theology? From what I gather, you believe that forgiveness happens only once, and if you happen to sin again, no more forgiveness is available. Would this be a fair assessment of what you believe the Bible teaches?
Don't worry I'm not going to argue with you anymore about it, I'm just curious. Thanks.
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Originally posted by epiphinehasThe point you miss is that John is saying that you don't have fellowship with Jesus if you walk in darkness (sin) at all. You are a liar if you say you do have fellowship with Jesus.
[b]You are a liar if you say you have fellowship with Jesus, yet walk in darkness (sin) at all.
Well, I do sin from time to time, ToO. I'm not going to lie.
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighte
Don't worry I'm not going to argue with you anymore about it, I'm just curious. Thanks.[/b]
Try placing 8-10 within context of 5-7. The sin John is speaking of in 8-10 is all the sin that one has committed prior to walking the walk. 8-10 is for those who might be inclined to think that they have no sin to cleanse from prior to walking the walk.
I'll try to explain your question about "if you happen to sin again". We all know people are gluttons. They are slaves to food. Those who manage to control their eating through force of will-power remain gluttons and will continue to 'relapse' from time to time. Those who come to the realization that food is sustenance rather than an instrument for pleasure will no longer 'relapse'. The chains will have been broken. They will have come to see the truth about food.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI'll see your 'truth' and raise you a beef brisket and sausage sandwich slathered with barbeque sauce. Damn, that was good!
Those who come to the realization that food is sustenance rather than an instrument for pleasure will no longer 'relapse'. The chains will have been broken. They will have come to see the truth about food.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThe point you miss is that John is saying that you don't have fellowship with Jesus if you walk in darkness (sin) at all.
The point you miss is that John is saying that you don't have fellowship with Jesus if you walk in darkness (sin) at all. You are a liar if you say you do have fellowship with Jesus.
Try placing 8-10 within context of 5-7. The sin John is speaking of in 8-10 is all the sin that one has committed prior to walking the walk. 8-10 is for those who might be ...[text shortened]... pse'. The chains will have been broken. They will have come to see the truth about food.
No, I get your point loud and clear, ToO. Trust me, it's not hard to understand. 🙂
The point you miss is that only those who walk in the Light are conscious of being sinners. And only those walking in Darkness are capable of believing that they're perfect.
You are a liar if you say you do have fellowship with Jesus.
James said, "We [Christians] all stumble in many things." Was James a liar too?
Try placing 8-10 within context of 5-7. The sin John is speaking of in 8-10 is all the sin that one has committed prior to walking the walk. 8-10 is for those who might be inclined to think that they have no sin to cleanse from prior to walking the walk.
You paint a rather grim portrait of the Risen King.
According to you, God isn't nearly as forgiving as my mother or my grandmother - or as loving. Both of whom have seen me do some pretty idiotic things, yet forgive and love all the more. Does John's declaration that, "God is love," amount to empty rhetoric, or does God indeed have infinitely more love and patience at his disposal than my grandmother and mother combined?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThose who come to the realization that food is sustenance rather than an instrument for pleasure will no longer 'relapse'. The chains will have been broken. They will have come to see the truth about food.------ToO--------------------
The point you miss is that John is saying that you don't have fellowship with Jesus if you walk in darkness (sin) at all. You are a liar if you say you do have fellowship with Jesus.
Try placing 8-10 within context of 5-7. The sin John is speaking of in 8-10 is all the sin that one has committed prior to walking the walk. 8-10 is for those who might be ...[text shortened]... pse'. The chains will have been broken. They will have come to see the truth about food.
So Jesus came simply to help us realise things then? He came to enlighten us about sin and nothing more? If that's true why did he not stay alive as long as possible to continue his teachings and give us even more than he did? What was all that stuff about remission of sin via his blood and the Son being lifted up? Is Jesus just a teacher to you?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI'll try to explain your question about "if you happen to sin again". We all know people are gluttons. They are slaves to food. Those who manage to control their eating through force of will-power remain gluttons and will continue to 'relapse' from time to time. Those who come to the realization that food is sustenance rather than an instrument for pleasure will no longer 'relapse'. The chains will have been broken. They will have come to see the truth about food. -----------ToO-----------------------------
The point you miss is that John is saying that you don't have fellowship with Jesus if you walk in darkness (sin) at all. You are a liar if you say you do have fellowship with Jesus.
Try placing 8-10 within context of 5-7. The sin John is speaking of in 8-10 is all the sin that one has committed prior to walking the walk. 8-10 is for those who might be ...[text shortened]... pse'. The chains will have been broken. They will have come to see the truth about food.
Are you speaking from personal experience , or observation of the world around you? Or is this just an intellectual position?
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneSo to be cleansed of be free of sin one must walk in light (ie overcome sin) ? So Jesus cleanses from sin on condition that you overcome sin yourself first? Why do we need cleansing if we have already overcome?
1 John, 1:5-7
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the ...[text shortened]... sin only if you walk in the light (God) as Jesus is in the light.
You have to walk the walk.
Sounds like we don't need Jesus at all. Maybe he just should have said , "come on guys , just overcome sin " and then gone off for a burger.
The problem here is that you have got the cart before the horse. Jesus forgives , cleanses and loves IN ORDER that we might be free (the Son sets you free) . You've got the whole thing upside down.
It also seems pertinent to ask you if you walk the walk yourself.
Do you really live in the complete expectation that you will never ever stumble/sin (eg lose you temper , get angry , think a bad thought)? If so I doubt you have children!
Concerning the topic of online apologetics, I think there is a place for it IF the person you are having a discussion with loves the truth and is truly interested and open to it; otherwise you're just wasting your time.
There comes a place where you must stop 'casting your pearls before swine' as Jesus puts it.
A good example of this can be found on the thread:'Why is there belief in the divinity of Jesus?' On this thread I, and others, presented good verifyable evidence for the divinity of Jesus and the veracity of Scripture which was simply dismissed without being refuted. I realized that the opponents of our arguments had already made up their minds and did not want to be confused with the facts. They asked us for a 'reason of the hope that is in us' (1 Pet 3:15) but did not really want to hear the answer, they just wanted to argue and present their opinions.
In such a case it's a waste of time, but I still believe that HONEST seekers would benefit from online apologetics.
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Originally posted by Henry23I concur with this Henry.
Concerning the topic of online apologetics, I think there is a place for it IF the person you are having a discussion with loves the truth and is truly interested and open to it; otherwise you're just wasting your time.
There comes a place where you must stop 'casting your pearls before swine' as Jesus puts it.
A good example of this can be found on th of time, but I still believe that HONEST seekers would benefit from online apologetics.
The spiritual enemy will try to wear out the saints of God in the last days. Some skeptics just seek to wear Christians out, wear them down.
Or shall I say they are being utilized by the devil to try to wear out the messengers of the gospel.
Speaking again to them is really giving holy things to the dogs and giving pearls to the swine.
The intent of that teaching, I believe is not to insult people as hogs or dogs. It is actually to CARE for people by not allowing them the opportunity to be self devoured by the God opposing "dog" or "wolf" nature within them.
I think not casting peals before the hogs means caring for the hogs by not letting them have excuse to be eaten up by that evil nature in them.
Of course in a medium like this there is no law forbidding anyone from speaking again and again or asking more and more questions.
Originally posted by Henry23I agree. Have you met any honest seekers?
Concerning the topic of online apologetics, I think there is a place for it IF the person you are having a discussion with loves the truth and is truly interested and open to it; otherwise you're just wasting your time.
There comes a place where you must stop 'casting your pearls before swine' as Jesus puts it.
A good example of this can be found on th ...[text shortened]... of time, but I still believe that HONEST seekers would benefit from online apologetics.
Originally posted by Henry23Was Nemesio's last substantial post in that thread an instance of dismissal or of rebuttal? It seemed to me a straightforward refutation of putative evidence upon which your view is based. I have been following that discussion with interest, and am looking forward to your eventual (?) response to Nemesio's post.
Concerning the topic of online apologetics, I think there is a place for it IF the person you are having a discussion with loves the truth and is truly interested and open to it; otherwise you're just wasting your time.
There comes a place where you must stop 'casting your pearls before swine' as Jesus puts it.
A good example of this can be found on th ...[text shortened]... of time, but I still believe that HONEST seekers would benefit from online apologetics.
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Originally posted by epiphinehasThe following are coherent only if you recognize that you must "keep His commandments"/"not commit sin"/not "walk in the darkness", etc.
[b]The point you miss is that John is saying that you don't have fellowship with Jesus if you walk in darkness (sin) at all.
No, I get your point loud and clear, ToO. Trust me, it's not hard to understand. 🙂
The point you miss is that only those who walk in the Light are conscious of being sinners. And only those walking in Darkness are capa initely more love and patience at his disposal than my grandmother and mother combined?[/b]
Let's try something. Set aside your pre-conceived notions and slowly read the following words without bias. What do the words actually say?
1 John 2:3 -6:
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
1 John 3:4 -9:
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
Originally posted by knightmeister"Why do we need cleansing if we have already overcome?"
So to be cleansed of be free of sin one must walk in light (ie overcome sin) ? So Jesus cleanses from sin on condition that you overcome sin yourself first? Why do we need cleansing if we have already overcome?
Sounds like we don't need Jesus at all. Maybe he just should have said , "come on guys , just overcome sin " and then gone off for a burger ...[text shortened]... sin (eg lose you temper , get angry , think a bad thought)? If so I doubt you have children!
Maybe sin "tarnishes" your soul. After you remove it from the harmful environment, the tarnish from your sinful life remains on your soul. Jesus removes the tarnish from your soul and makes it pristine.