Questioning online apologetics

Originally posted by vistesd
Folks are justified before God because they believe in Jesus, and because they believe in Jesus, they follow him. This is what Jesus attests to.

What Jesus attests to is more than just himself as Jesus. Otherwise, your statement veers toward the Sabellenaism (damn, I hope I’ve got my heresy right!) that I just saw referenced (I y on here. Maybe, given our personal history, you have an idea of what I am trying to say...[/b]

I can't say for sure that I understand what exactly the Logos entails in his entirety. But, neither do I think it is necessary to know. The belief which Christ calls people to, I think, is of the exact character of the belief we witness in the life and times of Abraham.

Abraham wasn't justified in God's eyes because he believed in Jesus Christ correctly, knowing all of the special facets of his person; rather, he was justified because he believed that God would do what he said he would do. To apply this as it relates to Jesus, I think a good key passage would be this:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:14).

If you remember, the serpents were sent by God into the Israelite camp to punish them for grumbling. Moses prayed for the Israelites and God told him to make a bronze serpent and raise it high above the camp, so whoever would look upon it would be healed. [What's revealing is the Hebrew word for "look" in Numbers 21:9 (I found this referenced in my Amplified Bible) means to "look attentively, expectantly, and with a steady and absorbing gaze" ; similar to the Greek word for "believe" which means to "believe in, have faith in, cling to, and rely on."]

The Israelites who were bitten expected to be healed, just like Abraham expected God to give him a son. That expectation, that belief that God would do what he said he would do, is what justifies men in God's eyes. In the exact same way, people look to Jesus as a sort of omni-promise from God. Really, as a promise of provision for all things, both temporal and eternal, e.g., justification, healing, salvation, guidance, gifts of the Spirit - you name it. Perhaps that's why Christ spoke so often about asking God for things in his (Jesus'😉 name.

At any rate, it's not about "name magic" or mere mental assent or right belief. The thrust of "believing in Jesus Christ" is relational - a relationship with God the Father. Abraham believed that God the Father would provide him a son, and Christians believe that God the Father will provide their salvation through His Son.

Obedience is, of course, closely tied in with believing in Jesus Christ, but that's for another time and place - I need to get some shut-eye. 😴

_________


I am, of late, not very confident of my ability to communicate clearly on here. Maybe, given our personal history, you have an idea of what I am trying to say...

You are always a joy to converse with, my friend, because one can always count on the fact that nuance rarely escapes you. This always makes me willing to divulge the full depth of my thoughts when I know you're around.

And I do know what you're talking about. Worry not.

Peace...

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Notice, Jesus never actually says what you claim he's saying; he never actually says that no one is saved until the self is killed in the process of denying oneself. That's your addition to his gospel message. You give me three passages and say, "Look, see," yet in every scriptural instance cited you've disregarded the context.

__________

gs.

How can you abide contradicting the words of Christ?

""For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it."

Jesus made the above statement. It's an abstract statement that requires interpretation if any meaning is to be gleaned from it. I've given you my interpretation. I'm well aware that Jesus didn't explicitly state my interpretation. However, His statement still needs to be dealt with and within context of the teachings of Jesus as a whole, it's what makes sense to me. What's your interpretation?

I understand the context of what Jesus was saying. Let's look at the first.

John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."

Jesus is speaking to "those Jews who had believed Him." Are they "believers"? Jesus sets a stipulation of continuing in His word. I see this as synonymous with following His commandments. Only then will they know the truth. This truth will set them free. Free from what? Free from slavery. What is a slave? Everyone who commits sin. Committers of sin do not dwell in the house forever. I see "dwell in the house forever" as being synonymous with "eternal life"

You're the one who has place Jesus in a box. From what I can tell, it is a box drawn by the teachings of Paul. You struggle to see what Jesus is saying because the teachings of Paul distort the meaning.

I have to think that one who truly "believes in Jesus", follows His commandments, i.e. the commandments of God. Anything short of that is doing little more than paying lip-service.

Luke 6:46
"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?"

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

John 14:21-24
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him. Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words


1 John 2:3 -6:
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Originally posted by vistesd
The only thing I’d add is that I think that is—not so much a “requirement”—but a statement of definition. How could I want anything less than a (my) whole being? Wholeness is the—whole point.

But that wholeness is (paradoxically?) dynamic, not static. I’ll try to think of a better way to express that...

Yes, "definition" is more precise.

I'll be interested in seeing where you go with the "dynamic, not static" thought.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Yes, "definition" is more precise.

I'll be interested in seeing where you go with the "dynamic, not static" thought.

I’ll be interested, too! 😉 I’m still processing that. This is only suggestive: flux (flow, change, mutability) seems to be a principle of nature. And yet folks as far apart as Advaita Vedantists and dualist theists sometimes claim that the divine nature (whether God, Brahman or the Tao) is immutable. And yet everything that is a reflection of that divine nature is ever-changing. Now that sets up either a contradiction or a paradox—for dualist and nondualist alike.

I stress that that is only suggestive: I really have to let the process—process.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]""For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it."

Jesus made the above statement. It's an abstract statement that requires interpretation if any meaning is to be gleaned from it. I've given you my interpretation. I'm well aware that Jesus didn't explicitly state my interpretation. However, His st ...[text shortened]... Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.[/b]

I have to think that one who truly "believes in Jesus", follows His commandments, i.e. the commandments of God. Anything short of that is doing little more than paying lip-service.

I agree! That's what the word says.

Our misunderstanding lies in what constitutes "believing in Jesus". You seem to imagine that when I say "believing in Jesus" I'm talking about mere lip-service, when I'm not. Christ made it clear in the passage above that only those Jews who were truly his disciples would be the ones who continued in his word, i.e., those who followed him through thick and thin. The rest, of course, were merely paying lip-service and didn't really believe in him even though they said they did.

Jesus is speaking to "those Jews who had believed Him." Are they "believers"? Jesus sets a stipulation of continuing in His word. I see this as synonymous with following His commandments. Only then will they know the truth. This truth will set them free. Free from what? Free from slavery. What is a slave? Everyone who commits sin. Committers of sin do not dwell in the house forever. I see "dwell in the house forever" as being synonymous with "eternal life"

I agree with your exegesis here. Christ delivers sinners, i.e., those sinners who believe in and follow him, from the bondage of sin, and gives them eternal life. Without a doubt. But nowhere does he say that they must be made perfect before they are justified in him. Again, those are words which you are putting in Jesus' mouth.

You're the one who has place Jesus in a box. From what I can tell, it is a box drawn by the teachings of Paul. You struggle to see what Jesus is saying because the teachings of Paul distort the meaning.

No, it's because the Jesus in your imagination, the Jesus who would send to hell a man who sincerely follows him but dies before he is made perfect, isn't the Jesus that I know and love. That's the logical conclusion of your present theology: those who diligently deny themselves every day but happen to die before they're justified in perfection must have died in their sins, and therefore must spend eternity in hell. It's just not true. Most of the passages about justification coming through believing in Jesus were uttered by Jesus himself, not Paul.

You seem to miss the graciousness of God, i.e., the Father who adopts sinners and calls them sons and daughters. His children stumble in many ways, and he lovingly chastises whom he loves, and they follow him - denying themselves daily and overcoming temptation. You also seem to miss the faithfulness of God, i.e., the Father who promises to never leave or forsake his adopted children. His children stumble in many ways, but he is faithful to forgive their repentant hearts, and they cry out to him, "Abba, Father!"

Do you honestly imagine that God casts out his adopted children before they are made perfect? This is what I mean about putting Jesus in a little box.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]I have to think that one who truly "believes in Jesus", follows His commandments, i.e. the commandments of God. Anything short of that is doing little more than paying lip-service.

I agree! That's what the word says.

Our misunderstanding lies in what constitutes "believing in Jesus". You seem to imagine that when I say "believing in Jesus" de perfect? This is what I mean about putting Jesus in a little box.[/b]

Let's go a little deeper
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever;

Jesus says, "If you continue in My word...you will know the truth". Jesus is indicating that you must continue following His commandments for the truth that will be revealed to you at some future time. How long must you continue? What is this "truth"? How will you recognize that you "know the truth"? When you know the truth, "the truth will make you free." Free from what? Free from committing sin. What is the consequence of not being made free? You don't "dwell in the house forever".

There's a time lag dependent on an event that is not professing belief. It's an event that requires following His commandments. How can this be true if you all you have to do is profess belief?

The event results in you being free from committing sin. How can this be true if you can continue to sin?

I don't know how to reconcile this other than to believe that you cannot continue to sin and be granted "eternal life".

"Do you honestly imagine that God casts out his adopted children before they are made perfect?

There a lot of things that happen in this world that I wouldn't think would be allowed to happen, yet they do. However things actually work won't be based on how I'd like to imagine they work. Nor will they be based on how you'd like to imagine.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Let's go a little deeper
[b]"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever;

Jesus says, "If you continue in My word...you will know the truth". Jesus is indicating that you ...[text shortened]... to imagine they work. Nor will they be based on how you'd like to imagine.[/b]

However things actually work won't be based on how I'd like to imagine they work. Nor will they be based on how you'd like to imagine.

One thing I'm certain about is, that I haven't yet met a perfect person in the flesh. Nor have I heard about anyone ever achieving perfection.

But, I agree, things won't ever be exactly how I imagine. I do, however, expect God to be faithful to his word.

________

Thanks for the discussion, ToO.

Peace.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]However things actually work won't be based on how I'd like to imagine they work. Nor will they be based on how you'd like to imagine.

One thing I'm certain about is, that I haven't yet met a perfect person in the flesh. Nor have I heard about anyone ever achieving perfection.

But, I agree, things won't ever be exactly how I imagine. I do, ...[text shortened]... t God to be faithful to his word.

________

Thanks for the discussion, ToO.

Peace.[/b]

Kind of abrupt, but most don't seem to care to think too deeply about what Jesus is saying.

I guess this is an example of somthing that doesn't work the way I'd imagine it'd work 🙂

Good luck.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Kind of abrupt, but most don't seem to care to think too deeply about what Jesus is saying.

I guess this is an example of somthing that doesn't work the way I'd imagine it'd work 🙂

Good luck.

Sorry, I didn't mean to be abrupt. I love to think deeply about what Jesus is saying, but it's clear that I'm not going to be able to change your mind. And there's no way that I'm going to be persuaded to accept your interpretation. So, I'd rather just agree to disagree at some point. Now seems as good a time as any...

Originally posted by epiphinehas
And there's no way that I'm going to be persuaded to accept your interpretation.

Well, at least this is honest of you. Most of the people with dogmatic stances on Scripture really
think that they are opened-minded. It's rare you see people say, 'There's no way I'll believe
what you believe no matter what you say.'

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
Well, at least this is honest of you. Most of the people with dogmatic stances on Scripture really
think that they are opened-minded. It's rare you see people say, 'There's no way I'll believe
what you believe no matter what you say.'

Nemesio

I appreciate the scathing complement, Nemesio.

Indeed, there are certain things I'm not open-minded about at all.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]""For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it."

Jesus made the above statement. It's an abstract statement that requires interpretation if any meaning is to be gleaned from it. I've given you my interpretation. I'm well aware that Jesus didn't explicitly state my interpretation. However, His st ...[text shortened]... Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.[/b]

Jesus made the above statement. It's an abstract statement that requires interpretation if any meaning is to be gleaned from it. I've given you my interpretation. I'm well aware that Jesus didn't explicitly state my interpretation. However, His statement still needs to be dealt with and within context of the teachings of Jesus as a whole, it's what makes sense to me. What's your interpretation? ----------ToO-------------------------------------------

------RESPONSE----------

Equally , what's your interpretation of "this is my blood , shed for the remission of sin"?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]""For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it."

Jesus made the above statement. It's an abstract statement that requires interpretation if any meaning is to be gleaned from it. I've given you my interpretation. I'm well aware that Jesus didn't explicitly state my interpretation. However, His st ...[text shortened]... Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.[/b]

I have to think that one who truly "believes in Jesus", follows His commandments, i.e. the commandments of God. Anything short of that is doing little more than paying lip-service.
-----ToO-----

A typical all or nothing statement . The man who follows the will of God 99% of the time , but due to his human nature fails here and there is deemed to be paying "lip service" to God? Anything short of perfection is seen as a lack of committment? This way of thinking does not apply to any human endeavour I know of. If you take sport, space travel , business , relationships , science .......is falling short of perfection in any of these neccesarily seen as a lack of committment or willpower or belief? No , of course it isn't.


Would you at least concede that it is possible for a man to be 100% committed to something but not achieve perfection in his endeavour?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The following are coherent only if you recognize that you must "keep His commandments"/"not commit sin"/not "walk in the darkness", etc.

Let's try something. Set aside your pre-conceived notions and slowly read the following words without bias. What do the words actually say?

1 John 2:3 -6:
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we kee ...[text shortened]... ss. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1 John 3:4 -9:
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 John 1:5-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.


----------

There's an apparent contradiction in these passages. Can you spot it and if so what do you make of it?

Originally posted by knightmeister
1 John 3:4 -9:
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 John 1:5-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are d ...[text shortened]... an apparent contradiction in these passages. Can you spot it and if so what do you make of it?

Interesting discussion. Could you, please, point out the contradiction that you notice?