Questioning online apologetics

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"Why do we need cleansing if we have already overcome?"

Maybe sin "tarnishes" your soul. After you remove it from the harmful environment, the tarnish from your sinful life remains on your soul. Jesus removes the tarnish from your soul and makes it pristine.[/b]

I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind me asking.

At what point do you or did you reach the point where you cannot lose what you are working for??

When you do get to your final destination(after death),where is it?

Originally posted by SmoothCowboy
I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind me asking.

At what point do you or did you reach the point where you cannot lose what you are working for??

When you do get to your final destination(after death),where is it?

I don't mind you asking. However, you're going to have to put your questions in context. I don't know what you're asking.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I don't mind you asking. However, you're going to have to put your questions in context. I don't know what you're asking.

Sorry,I sometimes forget to properly communicate what I am thinking.

At what point do you or did you reach the point where you cannot lose what you are working for?? (Your salvation. The point at which you are rewarded with eternal life.)

When you do get to your final destination(after death),where is it? (Where are you going to go after you die or Jesus comes back?)

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The following are coherent only if you recognize that you must "keep His commandments"/"not commit sin"/not "walk in the darkness", etc.

Let's try something. Set aside your pre-conceived notions and slowly read the following words without bias. What do the words actually say?

1 John 2:3 -6:
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we kee ...[text shortened]... ss. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

What do the words actually say?

I have no problem with the word of God. I'm blessed by it, and I thank you for sharing those passages with me. No doubt the church has always needed such admonition.
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Did you not answer my earlier question concerning James' statement because you don't have an answer to it? I admit that I'm not perfect, so you say that I have no fellowship with God. However, James said, "We [Christians] all stumble in many things."

So was James a liar to?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"Why do we need cleansing if we have already overcome?"

Maybe sin "tarnishes" your soul. After you remove it from the harmful environment, the tarnish from your sinful life remains on your soul. Jesus removes the tarnish from your soul and makes it pristine.[/b]

So you accept that we can still be tarnished by sin even though sin has been overcome? So we cannot purify ourselves yes?


Basically it seems as if Jesus's role in all this is peripheral. We do the main work of overcoming sin (by will power or "realisation" ) by the power for this does not reside with Jesus and is not reliant on him. He just does a bit of buffing up and finishing work , but the main job is ours.

Maybe you think his death on the cross wasn't that important or central to all this? Do you know why he felt he had to die and become the lamb of God?

Originally posted by SmoothCowboy
Sorry,I sometimes forget to properly communicate what I am thinking.

At what point do you or did you reach the point where you cannot lose what you are working for?? (Your salvation. The point at which you are rewarded with eternal life.)

When you do get to your final destination(after death),where is it? (Where are you going to go after you die or Jesus comes back?)

Actually, I'm not really "working for a reward" of any kind. I simply love truth. On the whole, the teachings of Jesus ring true. Jesus taught what is and isn't righteous. They aren't righteous because Jesus taught them, but because they are true. Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. One is saved from sin only when one no longer sins. One only walks with Jesus when one no longer sins.
One only walks in the light when one no longer sins. One only walks in truth when one no longer sins.

"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

Perhaps my love of truth is akin to "virtue is it's own reward". I think this renders your questions moot for me.

I hope this makes sense.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]What do the words actually say?

I have no problem with the word of God. I'm blessed by it, and I thank you for sharing those passages with me. No doubt the church has always needed such admonition.
__________

Did you not answer my earlier question concerning James' statement because you don't have an answer to it? I admit that I'm not pe ...[text shortened]... ever, James said, "We [Christians] all stumble in many things."

So was James a liar to?[/b]

When I wrote "You are a liar if you say you do have fellowship with Jesus" it was meant as a continuation of a paraphrase of what John was saying. I sense that you might not understand that.

As to James, I think you take that verse out of context.

Jame 3 seems to be a repackaging of the following:
Matthew 7:16-19
"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

Though I'm guessing you'll deny it, righteousness is "good fruit" and sin is "bad fruit". If you are "born of the spirit", you will be a "good tree". "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit". Note what is done with "bad trees".

The following is where James completes the same basic concept. Prior to this he seems to be pointing out the folly of trying to make a "bad tree" bear "good fruit". It is from this section that you took your verse.

James 3:10-12
My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. 11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.

Originally posted by bbarr
Was Nemesio's last substantial post in that thread an instance of dismissal or of rebuttal? It seemed to me a straightforward refutation of putative evidence upon which your view is based. I have been following that discussion with interest, and am looking forward to your eventual (?) response to Nemesio's post.

You'll notice that, while being a Christian grants you otherworldly interpretative skills and privies
you to truths unavailable to heathen, it also makes you blind and deaf in other ways. In fact,
I think that my refutation was the subject of dismissal by those who believe in the bizarre and
perverse manner that most Christians on this site do.

It's sorta like how being blind heightens your other senses, but in reverse.

Nemesio

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
When I wrote "You are a liar if you say you do have fellowship with Jesus" it was meant as a continuation of a paraphrase of what John was saying. I sense that you might not understand that.

As to James, I think you take that verse out of context.

Jame 3 seems to be a repackaging of the following:
[b]Matthew 7:16-19
"You will know them by their duce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.[/b]

Though I'm guessing you'll deny it, righteousness is "good fruit" and sin is "bad fruit".

This passage in Matthew is talking specifically about false prophets and false teachers, i.e., those who pretend to have immediate warrant and direction from God, who pretend to be divinely inspired, and who preach false doctrine - and how you can recognize them, since they may look harmless and seem pious, at least superficially, giving a false impression.

Jesus says, "know them by their fruits." Good fruit are good works which are pleasing to God and profitable to men. You are able to know a man's fruit by his words and actions, and the course of his conversation. Those prophets and teachers not taught nor sent by God, whose lives prove they are led by the unclean spirit, are the barren trees which God condemns.

Further, what is the fruit of their doctrine? If it is good fruit, i.e., if it is from God, their teaching will promote serious piety, humility, charity, holiness, love, etc. If the teacher's doctrine promotes pride, worldliness, contentiousness, injustice, and lack of charity, then you may conclude that his wisdom is not from above.
__________

This passage does not support the doctrine of "sinless perfection" which you are promoting.

The following is where James completes the same basic concept.

James is addressing those who are born of God, warning them not to become teachers, because teachers are held to a higher standard. He says plainly that "we" (referring to himself and the rest of the brethren) stumble in many things. If you mean to be a teacher, make sure you first have a great degree of control over your tongue, so that you will have a great degree of control over your whole body.

Controlling the tongue can be accomplished to a certain degree, but the tongue nevertheless cannot be tamed; therefore, there will always be great danger in becoming a teacher. If you remember, even Moses stumbled and sinned before God when he spoke out of turn, and God prevented him from entering the promised land because of it. Even the most humble and mature are susceptible to the danger of misspeaking, so it is wise to warn people not to be too eager to place themselves in a teaching position.

James is also pointing out that it is improper for those born of God to speak evil things with the same tongue which they use to praise God. Such evil speaking (gossip, slander, cursing, etc.) may be a force of habit, or a believer-follower may not be aware that what they say is of immense importance, important not only because they are to represent Christ but also because an evil tongue produces evil in the body. The aim of James' admonishment here is to teach his brethren that reaching the goal of perfect holiness begins with taming the tongue.
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Again, though, nothing in this passage supports the "sinless perfection" doctrine, which says that everyone born of God is automatically perfect in every way. In fact, just the opposite; there is a call to perfection, suggesting a great struggle with the flesh. Neither does it say that perfection is necessary for salvation.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
When I wrote "You are a liar if you say you do have fellowship with Jesus" it was meant as a continuation of a paraphrase of what John was saying. I sense that you might not understand that.

As to James, I think you take that verse out of context.

Jame 3 seems to be a repackaging of the following:
[b]Matthew 7:16-19
"You will know them by their ...[text shortened]... duce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.[/b]

Though I'm guessing you'll deny it, righteousness is "good fruit" and sin is "bad fruit". If you are "born of the spirit", you will be a "good tree". "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit". Note what is done with "bad trees". -------ToO---------------

Was Bob Geldoff producing good fruit or bad fruit at Live Aid? Somewhere along the line he swore on live TV (sin) but in the end he helped save millions. Did God chastice him for the swear word? Or was he more concerned with millions starving? Geldoff was presmably a bad/good tree producing good and bad fruit?

Another fly in the ointment.......

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Actually, I'm not really "working for a reward" of any kind. I simply love truth. On the whole, the teachings of Jesus ring true. Jesus taught what is and isn't righteous. They aren't righteous because Jesus taught them, but because they are true. Jesus taught salvation through righteousness. One is saved from sin only when one no longer sins. One only wa reward". I think this renders your questions moot for me.

I hope this makes sense.

One is saved from sin only when one no longer sins.---ToO---------


The thief on the cross (with Jesus) was saved after showing faith that Jesus was who he said he was. There's every indication that salvation was granted on the basis of his faith alone. ("Today you will be with me in paradise" )

That's at least one exception to your rule and remember it only takes one fly in your ointment and the game's off.

Never mind , I'm sure you will find some way of bypassing these awkward facts. Don't let the information get in the way of your position.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Though I'm guessing you'll deny it, righteousness is "good fruit" and sin is "bad fruit".

This passage in Matthew is talking specifically about false prophets and false teachers, i.e., those who pretend to have immediate warrant and direction from God, who pretend to be divinely inspired, and who preach false doctrine - and how you can recogniz ...[text shortened]... ith the flesh. Neither does it say that perfection is necessary for salvation.[/b]

Yes, Jesus was warning "false prophets and false teachers." A warning which describes Paul whose "bad fruit" is shown Romans 7:15-25:
"...but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin...I do not understand...I am doing the very thing I hate...no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me...I know that nothing good dwells in me...the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not....evil is present in me...etc."

Unfortunately it is Paul that you choose to follow. For you the words of Jesus are distorted since you can only see them through the lens of a false prophet.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Though I'm guessing you'll deny it, righteousness is "good fruit" and sin is "bad fruit". If you are "born of the spirit", you will be a "good tree". "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit". Note what is done with "bad trees". -------ToO---------------

Was Bob Geldoff producing good fruit or bad fruit at Live Aid? Somewhere along the line he swore on ...[text shortened]... ad/good tree producing good and bad fruit?

Another fly in the ointment.......

What do you think the following is telling you? Why do you insist on remaing so blind to the words of Jesus?

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What do you think the following is telling you? Why do you insist on remaing so blind to the words of Jesus?

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name c ...[text shortened]... ks?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'[/b]

This is an interesting verse. It says to me that it's not just a matter of deeds or activities. Jesus is interested in a state of mind or where the heart is of the given individual.

What do you think is wrong with the hearts of these individuals Jesus is talking about? And what makes you compare them to Bob Geldoff?

To me Geldoff was moved by compassion to do what he did. There's no sense that it was self serving or that he expected God to give him browny points for heaven beause of what he did. The reason why I cite Geldoff is not because he did some "mighty work" but because his heart seemed and still seems in the right place.

He was moved by love and compassion in the same way I imagine Jesus was when he saw suffering around him. My point is that I think God sees his heart and sees past his swearing (sin) to the love in him. He also seems to be someone who thirsts for justice and is angered by the lack of care from the West. These are exactly the qualities I imagine Jesus to have had.

I don't think God is as bothered by our sin as we imagine , I think he's much more interested in the love in our hearts.

The people Jesus is refering to in this verse do not understand love or grace. If the only reason that they did all these things was to "earn" salvation then they are lost. Love does not ask for anything back.

Originally posted by knightmeister
This is an interesting verse. It says to me that it's not just a matter of deeds or activities. Jesus is interested in a state of mind or where the heart is of the given individual.

What do you think is wrong with the hearts of these individuals Jesus is talking about? And what makes you compare them to Bob Geldoff?

To me Geldoff was moved by c ...[text shortened]... things was to "earn" salvation then they are lost. Love does not ask for anything back.

You're the one who brought up Geldolf with the idea that he produces "good fruit" because "in the end he helped save millions."

I brought up the verse in Matthew so that maybe you could begin to understand that doing "good deeds" no matter how "great" are not necessarily an indicator of producing "good fruit".