Qur'an

Originally posted by ckoh1965
Sounds sensible enough to me. I read somewhere that Confucious once said that if you want to be respected, then you must behave respectably.........or something like that...

I think if God wants to be loved, respected, then he must give us reasons to love and respect him. But in my other posts on here I've mentioned how God drown everyone, safe for a few ...[text shortened]... ....', and then you yourself kill a hell lot of people, then I would question your principle.

I think what you are asking is "Should man die for sinning"? In fact, God is "killing" every person who has ever existed, including his own Son, by allowing them to die because of sin.

Let me ask you, which life do you view as being in greater danger, one in which someone is celebate or one in which one is promiscuous, one in which drug use is common place or one in which it is absent, one in which murder is a way of life or one in which no murders are comitted? Simply put, sin is high risk behavoir and it accelerates the dying process.

However, I think your objection is the active participation of God in the acceleration of people dying because of their sinful behavoir. In the Bible there are two methods for dealing with such destructive behavoir. The first method is to conquer the sin by conquering the sinner so that their destructive behavoir cannot spread any further. The second method is to conquer the sin in the sinners life so that the sinner may be spared as well as those in which such behavoir may have spread to had the sin not been conquered. The later, of caarse, is what Christ came to do in the new era of grace compared to the old era of an eye for an eye. I think we can both agree that the later era is superior to the first. However, in each instance you will notice that the goal is the destruction of sin and not the destruction of man. Is it not a loving God that abhors that which destroys those with whom he cares for? Is it not a loving God who would sacrifice what is most dear to him in the form of his Son to help accomplish such a task?

Originally posted by blakbuzzrd
I understand proper etiquette for joining a serious discussion. I did in fact start reading this thread from the beginning, and that's why I asked the question.

Here it is put another way: what justification can there be for belief in prophets today?

Okey I will try to give a short, clear answer as much as I can:

If you read the thread you will understand that to talk about prophets then you must be accepting GOD exitance.

Prophets are assumed to be the messangers of GOD. They are the link between us and GOD. They give us the message which is:

1- That does exist.
2- And what does wants from us.

So humans basicly knew GOD through prophets.

But how can we make sure that someone is a prophet or massenger:
1- Their message. Does their message really declares about GOD. Is their message resoanble. Do they ask you for good.
2- They are supported by Miracles from GOD to support their claims.

Miracles differ from one prophet to the other. And depends on the prophet they were sent too. As in todays world you may not accept the idea of miracles. Then the final one should have miracles of the type that you can accept. And that what I belive in Islam.

Muslims belive the Quran is the everlasting mirecale of the Prophet Mohammed. Why we belive so:

1- The book is complete, perfect, cover all aspects of human life in a very resonable way. It give a solution for each problem. So the perfection of the message of Quran (specially that it was written 1400 years ago) makes us belive it is miracle.

2- The book has a perfect language. Well written in Arabic. No grammer, semantic errors could be found. Which mean that no human can write it (Specially the Prophet Muhammed was not able to read or write).

3- It include some scintific notes that dicovered recently (Some may argue with that, but some already proven).

4- Most important, the book say it will never corrupted. And challange every one to discover an error inside it, and to write a book like it.

The main remain uncorrupted for 1400 years.

No error or mistake discovered so far.

The perfection of another book, I don't know if you know one.

I have I was clear.

Originally posted by ahosyney
But how can we make sure that someone is a prophet or massenger:
1- Their message. Does their message really declares about GOD. Is their message resoanble. Do they ask you for good.
2- They are supported by Miracles from GOD to support their claims.

Thanks -- that is a nice synthesis, I think.

So, who makes the determination on #1? What determines whether or not a message "declares about God"?

And what is the extant evidence of #2? I mean, besides the obvious accounts various interested individuals wrote.

Originally posted by whodey
I think what you are asking is "Should man die for sinning"? In fact, God is "killing" every person who has ever existed, including his own Son, by allowing them to die because of sin.

Let me ask you, which life do you view as being in greater danger, one in which someone is celebate or one in which one is promiscuous, one in which drug use is common pla ...[text shortened]... ld sacrifice what is most dear to him in the form of his Son to help accomplish such a task?

Wow... I must admit that this is a new idea that I hear for the first time today. Let's see if I get it right.... God is trying to eradicate sin and not men.... hmmm...interesting idea that!

Well, let me tell you that God is not going to achieve his goal, period! But just for argument sake, let's just imagine that there is no sin in the world. No criminals, no murders, no frauds.......and untimely death can only come from natural disasters that God inflict on us all. We are all good people and love one another. Would God then leave us alone? Because there would be no more sin to eradicate?

Originally posted by blakbuzzrd
Thanks -- that is a nice synthesis, I think.

So, who makes the determination on #1? What determines whether or not a message "declares about God"?

And what is the extant evidence of #2? I mean, besides the obvious accounts various interested individuals wrote.

1- Your mind.
- If the one who claim to be a prophet tell you that there are two GODs, could this be true?

- If he tell you that GOD sleep for example. Can GOD sleep?

- If he allow adultery, or the laws he give you is not applicable, then it false.

May be I'm not that much clear. But I hope you understand what I mean.

2- I didn't understand you:

Prophets came with miracles. You want me to prove the mirales for you. You have to see it to belive. But as you can't see it now because it already happned, then the only solution is to find the one that still there.

I told I belive the Quran is a miracle. You can find out about this by reading.

I gave an Idea why Muslims belive it is a miracle. If you like we can discuss it.

Originally posted by ahosyney
1- Your mind.
- If the one who claim to be a prophet tell you that there are two GODs, could this be true?
- If he tell you that GOD sleep for example. Can GOD sleep?
- If he allow adultery, or the laws he give you is not applicable, then it false.
May be I'm not that much clear. But I hope you understand what I mean.

You are starting with the assumption that you already believe in the God that the prophet is talking about.
You are also assuming that God is necessarily good.
Many people do accept prophets that preach their own beliefs and reject anyone who comes with a new message. You test has no value as it would apply for many different religions and prophets.

2- I didn't understand you:
Prophets came with miracles. You want me to prove the mirales for you. You have to see it to belive. But as you can't see it now because it already happned, then the only solution is to find the one that still there.
I told I belive the Quran is a miracle. You can find out about this by reading.
I gave an Idea why Muslims belive it is a miracle. If you like we can discuss it.
I am yet to see a miracle or be convinced by anyone that a miracle has ever taken place. Of course the Quran seems like a miracle to Muslims but the Bible seems like a miracle to Christians and "The Lord of the Rings" looks like a miracle to me. If God existed and wanted me to believe in him he could show me a miracle himself.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You are starting with the assumption that you already believe in the God that the prophet is talking about.
You are also assuming that God is necessarily good.
Many people do accept prophets that preach their own beliefs and reject anyone who comes with a new message. You test has no value as it would apply for many different religions and prophets.

le to me. If God existed and wanted me to believe in him he could show me a miracle himself.

You are starting with the assumption that you already believe in the God that the prophet is talking about.
You are also assuming that God is necessarily good.
Many people do accept prophets that preach their own beliefs and reject anyone who comes with a new message. You test has no value as it would apply for many different religions and prophets.

Beliving in GOD doesn't imply that I will belive anyone come and say I'm a messanger of GOD. He has to prove it to me. That is my point. And that what every Muslim belive. A prophet without a prove is not a prophet.

How can he prove it to me. First his message should be logical. Second Miracle.

2- I didn't understand you:
I am yet to see a miracle or be convinced by anyone that a miracle has ever taken place. Of course the Quran seems like a miracle to Muslims but the Bible seems like a miracle to Christians and "The Lord of the Rings" looks like a miracle to me. If God existed and wanted me to believe in him he could show me a miracle himself.

-If you see the miracle today will you belive it? Lets discuss this.

-What do you think the miracle will look like?

-If I can prove to you that a miracle happned 1400 years ago will you belive it. The prophet Mohammed did some miracles and Islamic system insure the truth about anything the prophet said or did. will you accept this miracle?

-My argument is Quran is miracle, I discussed this here and in another thread. Quran has several challanges: I will talk about two:

1- Quran say it will never get corrupted. If this true, can you consider this a miracle?

2- Quran say no one will be able to find an error. If there is no proven error until now , do yo consider this a miracle?

Originally posted by blakbuzzrd
Here it is put another way: what justification can there be for belief in prophets today?

C.G. Jung was a prophet. Is he still worth reading?

Originally posted by ahosyney
-If you see the miracle today will you belive it? Lets discuss this.

-What do you think the miracle will look like?

It will look like a miracle of course.

-If I can prove to you that a miracle happned 1400 years ago will you belive it. The prophet Mohammed did some miracles and Islamic system insure the truth about anything the prophet said or did. will you accept this miracle?
Of course I will. But remember you must prove it.

-My argument is Quran is miracle, I discussed this here and in another thread. Quran has several challanges: I will talk about two:

1- Quran say it will never get corrupted. If this true, can you consider this a miracle?
This is unprovable. You can not foretell the future and you can claim that all corrupted versions are not the Quran. I can definitely present you with corrupted versions.

2- Quran say no one will be able to find an error. If there is no proven error until now , do yo consider this a miracle?
It claims that God exists. That is an error. I know many Christians who claim that the Bible similarly has no errors. The closest thing to a miracle is that people can look at a book full of errors and deny that it has any.
A quick google of 'Quran errors' will find plenty of sites listing errors. Of course you can explain away any possible error by twisting around the language and reading deeper meaning into every word.

Originally posted by twhitehead
It claims that God exists. That is an error.

What an annoyingly fatuous statement.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
What an annoyingly fatuous statement.

Why?

My point was that if we are Muslim then the Quran must be the truth. If we are not then its contents cannot possibly be without error.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Why?

My point was that if we are Muslim then the Quran must be the truth. If we are not then its contents cannot possibly be without error.

Because you talk like you know for sure, which you can't possibly.

Never mind.

I'd like to know if the Koran itself states that it is the unalloyed word of Allah. In my understanding, this view is a convention and has not gone unchallenged within the Muslim world, for example by Mohammad Abduh ( http://i-cias.com/e.o/abduh_m.htm ).

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Because you talk like you know for sure, which you can't possibly.

I can, and do, know for sure.

Do you find the claim by a large proportion of the worlds population that they know for sure that God exists to be an annoyingly fatuous statement?

fatuous
–adjective
1. foolish or inane, esp. in an unconscious, complacent manner; silly.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I can, and do, know for sure.

You shouldn't have a problem presenting your proof, then.

I find all claims to absolute knowledge fatuous. I'll change my mind if absolute proof is presented, of course.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
You shouldn't have a problem presenting your proof, then.

I find all claims to absolute knowledge fatuous. I'll change my mind if absolute proof is presented, of course.

I understand proof as used in mathematics. Please explain what you mean by absolute proof when used with regard to reality. Do you exist? Do you have absolute proof that you do?
Do you have absolute proof that gravity exists? If not can you be sure that it exists?
Do you live your life walking around all the invisible pink flying unicorns just in case they exist?
If I say 2+2=4 is correct am I making a fatuous claim of absolute knowledge?

I did not say I have 'absolute knowledge'. I said I 'know for sure'. That means it is something I have knowledge (stored information) about and I am sure that that information is correct.