1. Joined
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    26 Nov '06 15:312 edits
    This verse in chapter 2 has me pussled. I am an atheist. According to
    this verse, Allah has blinded me from the one true faith, and as a result
    he will punish me. Isn't that a bit odd?

    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html

    YUSUFALI: Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their
    hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
    PICKTHAL: Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and
    on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
    SHAKIR: Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their
    hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great
    punishment for them.


    Addition: I realise that this chapter is directed at the Jews, but of
    course if you speak of them who doesn't believe, that includes everyone
    but true Muslims. So, Allah is punishing people for not seeing after he
    put the blindfold on us. Doesn't seem like a very rational God to me. 😕
  2. Joined
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    26 Nov '06 15:491 edit
    Believe me, I'm not trying to discredit the Qur'an, it's just that as I
    read, certain things strike me as odd or a bit funny. This verse for
    instance:

    YUSUFALI: When it is said to them: "Believe as the others
    believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a
    surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
    PICKTHAL: And when it is said unto them: believe as the people
    believe, they say: shall we believe as the foolish believe? are not they
    indeed the foolish? But they know not.
    SHAKIR: And when it is said to them: Believe as the people
    believe they say: Shall we believe as the fools believe? Now surely they
    themselves are the fools, but they do not know.


    Here Muhammed assumes that it's clear to everyone that he's not the
    fool, but all those other people whom doesn't believe in the words
    spoken to him indirectly from Allah.

    Will reading the Qur'an make it clear to me exactly why I'm a fool for not
    believing in Qur'an other than that the Qur'an says so? We'll see. 🙂

    Stay tuned for another episode of Stocken reads the Qur'an. 😀
  3. Joined
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    26 Nov '06 15:58
    Originally posted by stocken
    This verse in chapter 2 has me pussled. I am an atheist. According to
    this verse, Allah has blinded me from the one true faith, and as a result
    he will punish me. Isn't that a bit odd?

    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html

    [b]YUSUFALI:
    Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their
    hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great i ...[text shortened]... earing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great
    punishment for them.
    [/b]
    I thougth you will not start a new thread. Any way , It might be a good Idea!!!

    For chapter 2 , verse 6

    002.006
    YUSUFALI: As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
    PICKTHAL: As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
    SHAKIR: Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.

    002.007
    YUSUFALI: Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
    PICKTHAL: Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
    SHAKIR: Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.


    You think that Allah choosed you to blind you from the truth, so why bother yourself, there is no hope.

    But if this is the case why this is all about. Why unbelivers belived?

    That is not what is ment here. It means when a man see the truth and refuse to accept it then GOD punish him by sealing upon his heart.

    But in your case you didn't see the truth yet. If you saw it and refused it then you will be sealed. And what ever I do will not change your mind.

    But if you didn't see the truth, why be punished.

    But don't take this as an execuse too, there is nothing hidden today. You could easly read Quran in any language today. If you didn't try it is you fault.

    For every one , I'm talking here from an Islamic point of view, so of course it might be different from what you think. But that is why we are here, to explain each others point of view.
  4. Joined
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    26 Nov '06 16:02
    Originally posted by stocken
    Believe me, I'm not trying to discredit the Qur'an, it's just that as I
    read, certain things strike me as odd or a bit funny. This verse for
    instance:

    [i][b]YUSUFALI:
    When it is said to them: "Believe as the others
    believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a
    surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
    [b ...[text shortened]... We'll see. 🙂

    Stay tuned for another episode of Stocken reads the Qur'an. 😀[/b]
    As we are going to talk from an Islamic point of view then When Quran speek it is Allah (GOD) who is speeking not the prophet Muhammed. So please stick to this because it makes a big difference.

    See the answer in my previous post for your question, because the verses are all in the same context.

    Note: I know what your are trying to do , we agreed on that, I gave you the challange, so both of us should be ready for it.
  5. Standard memberAgerg
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    26 Nov '06 16:152 edits
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    I thougth you will not start a new thread. Any way , It might be a good Idea!!!

    For chapter 2 , verse 6
    [b]
    002.006
    YUSUFALI: As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
    PICKTHAL: As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; from what you think. But that is why we are here, to explain each others point of view.
    [/b]
    hmm... so your god grants humans the ability to reason. The consequence of this being that in some cases a person will deduce that a *book of truth* that can only be substantiated through having faith has no more validity than any other book of truth substantiated by the same means. Your god then punishes them for actually coming to this conclusion and choosing *no book of truth* when the tools he gave to us work as catalysts toward this end???
  6. Joined
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    26 Nov '06 16:22
    Originally posted by Agerg
    hmm... so your god grants humans the ability to reason. The consequence of this being that in some cases a person will deduce that a *book of truth* that can only be substantiated through having faith has no more validity than any other book of truth substantiated by the same means. Your god then punishes them for actually coming to this conclusion and choosing *no book of truth* when the tools he gave to us work as catalysts toward this end???
    You think? Or is it possible that if I read the entire Qur'an and still can't see
    that light, that truth, I won't be punished by Allah? I mean, it wouldn't make
    any sense at all for Allah to create me, put before me the book of truth and
    when I can't fathom the truth in my heart (which he created this way) he will
    punish me? No!? Surely not... 😉
  7. Joined
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    26 Nov '06 16:251 edit
    Originally posted by Agerg
    hmm... so your god grants humans the ability to reason. The consequence of this being that in some cases a person will deduce that a *book of truth* that can only be substantiated through having faith has no more validity than any other book of truth substantiated by the same means. Your god then punishes them for actually coming to this conclusion and choosing *no book of truth* when the tools he gave to us work as catalysts toward this end???
    You have three options here:

    1- You read the book, find the truth in it and accept it. So you don't have to care about GOD punishment.

    2- You read the book find the truth but you refuse to accept. It is your choise. So you have to accept the consequences.

    3- You read the book, find nothing interesting, and continue to belive that there is no GOD. So why worry about GOD punishment.

    But how can you make your choice without trying to read the book.

    Note: Quran is the book of Islam. But it is not the only source. There Sunna (What the Prophet say or did).
  8. Joined
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    26 Nov '06 16:26
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    You have three options here:

    1- You read the book, find the truth in it and accept it. So you don't have to care about GOD punishment.

    2- You read the book find the truth but you refuse to accept. It is your choise. So you have to accept the consequences.

    3- You read the book, find nothing interesting, and continue to belive that there is no GOD. So why worry about GOD punishment.
    Excellent reply. 🙂
  9. Standard memberAgerg
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    26 Nov '06 16:322 edits
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    You have three options here:

    1- You read the book, find the truth in it and accept it. So you don't have to care about GOD punishment.

    2- You read the book find the truth but you refuse to accept. It is your choise. So you have to accept the consequences.

    3- You read the book, find nothing interesting, and continue to belive that there is no GOD. So why worry about GOD punishment.
    lets concentrate on 3 (1 & 2 work on the false assumption that a rational skeptic who cannot be swayed purely by the request for faith would actually see any truth in these books.)

    If 3 however...whether I worry or whether I worry not about your god's punishment is irrelevant... what is relevant is whether your god would still condemn me to the fires of hell for reaching a simple but logical conclusion about your *book of truth* despite the fact I do not worry about it
  10. Joined
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    26 Nov '06 16:40
    Originally posted by Agerg
    lets concentrate on 3 (1 & 2 work on the assumption that a rational person who cannot be swayed purely by the request for faith would actually see any truth in these books.)

    If 3 however...whether I worry or whether I worry not about your god's punishment is irrelevant... what is relevant is whether your god would still condemn me to the fires of hell for ...[text shortened]... mple but logical conclusion about your *book of truth* despite the fact I do not worry about it
    So you assume that GOD exists but the Book was not enough for you to belive.

    Ok,

    The Quran and Sunna assume that they will be enough for you if you have a good thinking to accept them. So if you didn't get it we have to results from this:

    1- They are true and you have a mental problem didn't allow you to get this truth. In this case you will not be punished for your mental problems.

    2- They are not true. And GOD is not there.

    But how can you tell without trying.
  11. Standard memberAgerg
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    26 Nov '06 16:492 edits
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    So you assume that GOD exists but the Book was not enough for you to belive.

    Ok,

    The Quran and Sunna assume that they will be enough for you if you have a good thinking to accept them. So if you didn't get it we have to results from this:

    1- They are true and you have a mental problem didn't allow you to get this truth. In this case you will not b ...[text shortened]... oblems.

    2- They are not true. And GOD is not there.

    But how can you tell without trying.
    So you're saying that if a skeptic was to read your book and reach the conclusion that there was nothing interesting in it and not worry about your god's punishment then there can be only 2 consequences:

    1) they have some form of learning disability
    2) your god does not exist

    If there exists at least one person then who does not have learning difficulties and has found nothing interesting in your *book of truth* then your god does not exist!

    Well then based on the fact that I absolutely wouldn't find anything in your book that wouldn't be anymore valid than what I could find in The Gospel of the FSM...it follows that since my faculties are in good working order then there would be no god....But in that case i have no need to even read it in the first place!
  12. Joined
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    26 Nov '06 16:55
    Originally posted by Agerg
    So you're saying that if a skeptic was to read your book and reach the conclusion that there was nothing interesting in it and not worry about your god's punishment then there can be only 2 consequences:

    1) they have some form of learning disability
    2) your god does not exist

    If there exists one person then who does not have learning difficulties and ha ...[text shortened]... there would be no god....But in that case i have no need to even read it in the first place!
    Well then based on the fact that I absolutely wouldn't find anything in your book that wouldn't be anymore valid than what I could find in The Gospel of the FSM...

    How could this be fact? It might be fact only after you try, not before.

    Say so before trying to read, appears to me that you are following the Verse exactly!!!

    I cann't force you to belive , and we are not talking here to do that. It is up to you. But just remember someone tried to show something you may don't know. So if your assumption was wrong, you already know the consequences.
  13. Standard memberAgerg
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    26 Nov '06 17:046 edits
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    [b]Well then based on the fact that I absolutely wouldn't find anything in your book that wouldn't be anymore valid than what I could find in The Gospel of the FSM...

    How could this be fact? It might be fact only after you try, not before.

    Say so before trying to read, appears to me that you are following the Verse exactly!!!

    I cann't force you ...[text shortened]... hing you may don't know. So if your assumption was wrong, you already know the consequences.[/b]
    How could this be fact? It might be fact only after you try, not before.

    It is a fact because I know my own mindset...Given that my calculator is without significant defects I do not need to key 2+2 into it just to be sure that it would give an answer of 4...I know this to be true without even trying.

    Additionally...do you hold to the idea that all people who have read your *book of truth* did not not find anything interesting OR have mental difficulties? (for if there was just one exception then in your previous post by asserting that by 2- They are not true. And GOD is not there. there would be no god)

    I cann't force you to belive , and we are not talking here to do that. It is up to you. But just remember someone tried to show something you may don't know. So if your assumption was wrong, you already know the consequences.

    This is what I'm interested in...does your god punish people for thinking with their heads as opposed to thinking with their hearts? (as it were)
  14. Joined
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    26 Nov '06 17:40
    Originally posted by Agerg
    [b]How could this be fact? It might be fact only after you try, not before.

    It is a fact because I know my own mindset...Given that my calculator is without significant defects I do not need to key 2+2 into it just to be sure that it would give an answer of 4...I know this to be true without even trying.

    Additionally...do you hold to the idea that al ...[text shortened]... h people for thinking with their heads as opposed to thinking with their hearts? (as it were)[/b]
    I tried hard to understand you but I failed.

    2+2 = 4 is a fact no doute about it. No body say it might be 5 or 3.

    But GOD doesn't exist , is not a fact.

    If you say that GOD existance is impossible then you have a mental problem and so, GOD will not punish you.
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    26 Nov '06 19:17
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    You have three options here:

    1- You read the book, find the truth in it and accept it. So you don't have to care about GOD punishment.

    2- You read the book find the truth but you refuse to accept. It is your choise. So you have to accept the consequences.

    3- You read the book, find nothing interesting, and continue to belive that there is no GOD. S ...[text shortened]... he book of Islam. But it is not the only source. There Sunna (What the Prophet say or did).
    [/b]
    4. you read the book, find nothing interesting, and continue to believe that there is no GOD. when you die you find out that there is a GOD and he punishes you.
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