Raise your hand if you're sure...

Originally posted by whodey
In a way you might say Christ was a Zen Christian in many respects. After all, he taught us to follow a road of self denial. He also practiced what he preached all the way to the cross. I often wonder if the psychological turmoil for him was worse than the actual pain of the cross like when he sweated great drops of blood before going to the cross. As his ...[text shortened]... that has the potential to render you at peace with yourself when face to face with death itself.

From Bokonon:

Tiger got to hunt,
Bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep,
Bird got to land,
Man got to tell himself he understand.

EDIT: Luke 22:42 is hardly something a Zen Master would say.

Originally posted by whodey
In a way you might say Christ was a Zen Christian in many respects. After all, he taught us to follow a road of self denial. He also practiced what he preached all the way to the cross. I often wonder if the psychological turmoil for him was worse than the actual pain of the cross like when he sweated great drops of blood before going to the cross. As his ...[text shortened]... you at peace with yourself when face to face with death itself and/or great physical discomfort.

There are Zen Christians. I do not call myself a Buddhist.

Not trying to stroke the guy, but I owe No.1 a debt of sorts: he gave me a huge push shortly before his sabbatical from here. I spent months after that caught in the revolving door, so to speak (and may well get caught in it again), but it was his push, and the insight that came with it, that got me out the other side. (He likely doesn’t even remember.) If he offers you something on this stuff to read and ponder, it’s likely to be damned worthwhile (is there a pun there?).

Ruthlessness can be “grandmotherly kindness.” (If you knew my grandmother...!)

Originally posted by no1marauder
Are men capable of inflicting "emotional pain" on your AlMighty, SuperDuper God??? Your premise is absurd; a 3 O God is infinitely further away from us than we are to an amoeba. Do you sit around and worry about whether the germs in your mouth that cause bad breath "love" you? Why would such a Super Being care about what we think? And if he deigned to wo ho got to own them and then tell me what a swell God of Love they would have perceived.

When I gave the example of God taking the life away from others to potentially prevent greater pain in the future, I was merely being speculative. I was attempting to reveal that perhaps there is a greater complexity to the issue than you are willing to admitt or have considered.

From a Christian perspective, the Biblical struggles have been over one thing and one thing only which is to erradicate sin thus erradicating pain and suffering. If you do not believe so then simply read the end of Revelation where God is finally successful. He began by giving us "good" laws to live by and then by giving us a redeemer to deliver us from our sins and for the climax he will ressurect us from death itself!! Granted, it has been a long a painful journey but it will be well worth it. The question then becomes, is increasing temperal pain at times a necessary evil, so to speak, in order to prevent greater suffering in the future? For example, was it necessary for Christ to go to the cross? I say yes it was.

As far as bacteria not being able to love I would simply ask what was the purpose of creation? Was it to create bacteria? Was it to create horses etc, etc? Or was it to create mankind? I say the later. Mankind was the climax of his creation thus when his masterpiece had been completed he "rested". What God desired was communion with mankind by sharing mutual love and affection with him. That was the focus of creation.

Originally posted by no1marauder
From Bokonon:

Tiger got to hunt,
Bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep,
Bird got to land,
Man got to tell himself he understand.

EDIT: Luke 22:42 is hardly something a Zen Master would say.

Perhaps the Zen Masters have something to learn from the Great Master? 😉

Originally posted by vistesd
Ruthlessness can be “grandmotherly kindness.” (If you knew my grandmother...!)[/b]

I know what you mean I had a similar type of grandmother. Perhaps we are related and don't know it? 😵

Perhaps God's kindness is similar at times?

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
Humanity has been around for a million+ years (slighty more than the 6000 the bible implies). Just to be fair, let's say it's 50,000 years of humanity plodding around the Earth. As a conservative estimate, let's say that humanity has devloped at least 15,000 Gods over our time on Earth. With this comes elaborate rituals, sacrifices, good, evil, dem ...[text shortened]... f humanities creative psyche? Why is Christianity any more valid than Hinduism for example?

Don't you think it is about time you start studying things and find out ?


http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/index.htm

http://bav.vatican.va/en/v_home_bav/home_bav.shtml

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If you are really interested in the subject I can recommend two encyclicals by John Paul II

Fides et Ratio

on the relationship
between Faith and Reason

http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0216/_INDEX.HTM

And:

VERITATIS SPLENDOR

http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0222/_INDEX.HTM

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If you don't start studying things you are not going to find any answer to any of your questions ...... Good luck.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Don't you think it is about time you start studying things and find out ?


http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/index.htm

http://bav.vatican.va/en/v_home_bav/home_bav.shtml

***************************************************

If you are really interested in the subject I can recommend two encycl ...[text shortened]... tudying things you are not going to find any answer to any of your questions ...... Good luck.

Wikivanhoe or Googlehoe has a nice ring to it. I will check out some of your links, but, to be honest with you I have no interest in your various posted links or cut and paste acts. I would rather see what you think.

I do study, by the way, a variety of topics, voraciously. What makes you think I don't? I'm not happy with what I find. So far, nothing 'feels' like Truth to me, but, I suspect I'll know it when I find it.

Originally posted by whodey
When I gave the example of God taking the life away from others to potentially prevent greater pain in the future, I was merely being speculative. I was attempting to reveal that perhaps there is a greater complexity to the issue than you are willing to admitt or have considered.

From a Christian perspective, the Biblical struggles have been over one thin with mankind by sharing mutual love and affection with him. That was the focus of creation.

Mankind in its arrogance decided it was the center of creation and then part of mankind created a SuperDuper God who made an entire, vast universe for no other purpose that to put Man in it. What hubris!

My point remains: why would an Almighty, All-Powerful God give the tiniest crap about what men think? Why would He need to be loved by creatures so infinitely inferior to him in every way? Your God sounds as needy as a 13 year old girl with a weight problem.

Originally posted by whodey
When I gave the example of God taking the life away from others to potentially prevent greater pain in the future, I was merely being speculative. I was attempting to reveal that perhaps there is a greater complexity to the issue than you are willing to admitt or have considered.

From a Christian perspective, the Biblical struggles have been over one thin with mankind by sharing mutual love and affection with him. That was the focus of creation.

Of course, it wasn't necessary for Christ to go to the cross; your Big Daddy is All-Powerful remember? He could have erradicated sin whenever and by whatever means he choses. And don't give me the "free will" argument; he certainly wasn't concerned about the "free will" of the Midianites. And Christ didn't seem so anxious to go to the cross in the Garden, did he?

You really need to go back to the beginning and look at your beliefs with a fresh eye and mind. Consider this story:

A university professor went to visit a famous Zen master. While the master quietly served tea, the professor talked about Zen. The master poured the visitor's cup to the brim, and then kept pouring. The professor watched the overflowing cup until he could no longer restrain himself. "It's overfull! No more will go in!" the professor blurted. "You are like this cup," the master replied, "How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup."

http://www-usr.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/emptycup.html

Empty your cup, Whodey.

Compare Christ in the Garden (attempting to beg out of his supposed purpose for being on Earth in the first place!) with the Zen Master in this story:

During the civil wars in feudal Japan, an invading army would quickly sweep into a town and take control. In one particular village, everyone fled just before the army arrived - everyone except the Zen master. Curious about this old fellow, the general went to the temple to see for himself what kind of man this master was. When he wasn't treated with the deference and submissiveness to which he was accustomed, the general burst into anger. "You fool," he shouted as he reached for his sword, "don't you realize you are standing before a man who could run you through without blinking an eye!" But despite the threat, the master seemed unmoved. "And do you realize," the master replied calmly, "that you are standing before a man who can be run through without blinking an eye?"

http://www-usr.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/nofear.html

Originally posted by whodey
Perhaps the Zen Masters have something to learn from the Great Master? 😉

Fear of death? I don't think they'd be interested.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Fear of death? I don't think they'd be interested.

Courage is not an absence of fear , it is acting despite the fear. A man who never felt any fear could never be courageous.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Courage is not an absence of fear , it is acting despite the fear. A man who never felt any fear could never be courageous.

Why would God in human flesh fear death? To die for our sins was his supposed purpose on Earth; why would he attempt to avoid it? And why if He was 100% God would God the Father have the power to "pass this cup" (i.e. crucifixion) but Jesus did not?

Where is the "courage" is asking to be relieved of an onerous chore?

EDIT: Here's the passage I'm referring to:

41 And he was parted from them about a stone's cast; and he kneeled down and prayed,

42 saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

43 And there appeared unto him an angel from heaven, strengthening him.

Luke 22:41-43

Why would an angel have to strengthen God?

Intelligent quotes by no1marauder that elevates our discussion:

"Your type of Christianity is nuts."

"We've heard this crap before."

Names for God:

"Big Daddy in the Sky"

"OT Monster God"

"pretend God"

Fundamentalist Christian: "fundie"

Thanks for elevating the discussion, no1marauder. It really helps those who disagree with you to respect your point of view.

Originally posted by gaychessplayer
Intelligent quotes by no1marauder that elevates our discussion:

He's obnoxious and a jackass, but he's very smart and usually knows what he's talking about. If you can endure the abuse there's a lot of substance in no1's posts.