Originally posted by dj2becker
You said people can be saved without believing the gospel and only by living righteously, (which they could have done anyway before Jesus died on the cross) but before that you said Jesus died on the cross so that those who believe in him can be saved. You are just contradicting yourself at every turn. The Bible is very clear that believing in Jesus is the starting point, living righteously happens after that.

John 6:27-29King James Version (KJV)
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Philippians 2:12-14King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

We need God, without God we are left to our devises, we are left living in this world
the way we came into it.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Our real conflict isn't with each other, but centers around the struggle of evil and good.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Christ may have given you life insurance sir, but you still need to keep up with the premiums.

Jesus paid it all.

You see Ghost, the issue here in this thread isn't about whether or not one should do good works. It's about whether or not doing good works gets one saved.

If you read Rajk and ToO carefully you'll see that that's the idea they're promoting. They say good works are required for salvation.

It's a lie. If one could earn eternal life by doing good works, then Jesus died in vain. It's that simple.

Originally posted by josephw
You see Ghost, the issue here in this thread isn't about whether or not one should do good works. It's about whether or not doing good works gets one saved.

Well, there's no getting "saved" without good works, right?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Proclaiming that you know and believe in Christ yet deny Jesus's teachings makes you a mouth worshipper

It is you Rajk that is denying Jesus' teachings by denying that his death on the cross paid all your sin's debt, and by adding to what Jesus did on your behalf saying that one must do good works to be saved.

It's heresy.

Originally posted by josephw
It is you Rajk that is denying Jesus' teachings by denying that his death on the cross paid all your sin's debt, and by adding to what Jesus did on your behalf saying that one must do good works to be saved.

But if faith is dead without good works, that surely means those good works are not optional, correct?

Originally posted by josephw
It is you Rajk that is denying Jesus' teachings by denying that his death on the cross paid all your sin's debt, and by adding to what Jesus did on your behalf saying that one must do good works to be saved.

It's heresy.

The issue is He leaves off what Jesus did for us to replace it with what we do. No one ever
says we will not be doing good works, what we do say is that it isn't our good works that
saves us, it is Jesus who saves us by what He did, and we believe in Him.

As works becomes the central part of that doctrine, than things like those who do not
know Jesus can be righteous before God, they got works, when Jesus says that those
that do not believe in Him are condemn already.


John 3:17-19King James Version (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Originally posted by KellyJay
No one ever says we will not be doing good works, what we do say is that it isn't our good works that saves us, it is Jesus who saves us by what He did, and we believe in Him.

Crucially though, you never say that you do have to do good works. Why is that?

Originally posted by KellyJay
The issue is He leaves off what Jesus did for us to replace it with what we do. No one ever
says we will not be doing good works, what we do say is that it isn't our good works that
saves us, it is Jesus who saves us by what He did, and we believe in Him.

As works becomes the central part of that doctrine, than things like those who do not
know Jesus ...[text shortened]... is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Do 'bad works' condemn you?

Originally posted by FMF
Crucially though, you never say that you [b]do have to do good works. Why is that?[/b]

He never says that. Plus he will read sonships postings that NOTHING is required and he will never challenge it. Its simple, he believes that nothing is required.

Originally posted by Rajk999
He never says that. Plus he will read sonships postings that NOTHING is required and he will never challenge it. Its simple, he believes that nothing is required.

The only thing required is faith. Your works are as filthy rags.

Originally posted by josephw
The only thing required is faith. Your works are as filthy rags.

Yeah, who needs good works.....(Apart from God).

Originally posted by josephw
The only thing required is faith. Your works are as filthy rags.

Call it what you want but I hope for your sake you are still doing the filthy rags.
Otherwise Jesus will cast you and your eternal assurance nonsense doctrine into the lake of fire.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Do 'bad works' condemn you?

Evil works, sin does which again is why we need saved.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Yeah, who needs good works.....(Apart from God).

No one is saying good works should not be done, no one is saying God does not want good works! The salvation of God is through Jesus Christ to trust in your righteousness due to your works, is not placing your faith in Christ, but your own efforts.

What/who makes you righteous before God, Jesus or ...?

Originally posted by KellyJay
No one is saying good works should not be done, no one is saying God does not want good works! The salvation of God is through Jesus Christ to trust in your righteousness due to your works, is not placing your faith in Christ, but your own efforts.

What/who makes you righteous before God, Jesus or ...?

Good works are REQUIRED AND NECESSARY
Good works leads to eternal life.
No good works = eternal damnation

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,
Come, ye blessed of my Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For ...you did good works

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,
prepared for the devil and his angels:
For .. you did no good works
(Matthew 25:31-46 KJV)

I hope you have teeth to gnash.