1. Shetland Primary
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    11 Mar '05 16:32
    If your brain evolved from random chance, then how can you trust your own logic?
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    11 Mar '05 16:40
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    If your brain evolved from random chance, then how can you trust your own logic?
    Quite simply. Despite the fact the two positions are not linked I will take your statement as being coherrent for the moment. What we call logic has been discussed, demonstrated and rationalised for centuaries by philosophers, mathematicians etc. The results of this pyramid of agreed concepts is what we call logic. It follows rules which have been set out, tested and agreed. Logic is not at the mercy of perception, it stands alone regardless of it.
  3. Standard memberDarfius
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    11 Mar '05 16:50
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Quite simply. Despite the fact the two positions are not linked I will take your statement as being coherrent for the moment. What we call logic has been discussed, demonstrated and rationalised for centuaries by philosophers, mathematicians etc. The results of this pyramid of agreed concepts is what we call logic. It follows rules which have been set o ...[text shortened]... t, tested and agreed. Logic is not at the mercy of perception, it stands alone regardless of it.
    At one point there was a pyramid of agreement that the earth was flat.

    Were they being logical?
  4. Standard memberroyalchicken
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    11 Mar '05 16:531 edit
    Originally posted by Darfius
    At one point there was a pyramid of agreement that the earth was flat.

    Were they being logical?
    Yes, potentially. Logic is a grammar for manipulating a very formal language. There is nothing logically invalid about the simple notion that the earth is flat; it is merely empirically invalid.
  5. Shetland Primary
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    11 Mar '05 16:54
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Quite simply. Despite the fact the two positions are not linked I will take your statement as being coherrent for the moment. What we call logic has been discussed, demonstrated and rationalised for centuaries by philosophers, mathematicians etc. The results of this pyramid of agreed concepts is what we call logic. It follows rules which have been set o ...[text shortened]... t, tested and agreed. Logic is not at the mercy of perception, it stands alone regardless of it.
    CS Lewis said,

    "If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents—the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts—i.e. of materialism and astronomy—are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It’s like expecting that the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milkjug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset."



    You said:
    "What we call logic has been discussed, demonstrated and rationalised for centuaries by philosophers, mathematicians etc. The results of this pyramid of agreed concepts is what we call logic. It follows rules which have been set out, tested and agreed. Logic is not at the mercy of perception, it stands alone regardless of it."


    How can we trust the rules for logic that have been set out by men whose thoughts are mere accidents?
  6. Standard memberDarfius
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    11 Mar '05 16:58
    Originally posted by royalchicken
    Yes, potentially. Logic is a grammar for manipulating a very formal language. There is nothing logically invalid about the simple notion that the earth is flat; it is merely empirically invalid.
    Then since God is not empirically invalid, why is it not logical to say He exists?
  7. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    11 Mar '05 17:06
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    If your brain evolved from random chance, then how can you trust your own logic?
    That which helps an organism survive and reproduce remains in the gene pool and proliferates. Those random events which are detrimental to this end disappear from the gene pool. Happiness and pleasure as well as pain and suffering are consequences of those activities and qualities which work towards the end (or against, in the case of pain and suffering) of survival and reproduction in general.

    I value happiness and the avoidance of pain. As logic helps me attain that which brings happiness and avoids pain, I trust it. It is something that brings me what I value.
  8. Standard memberroyalchicken
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    11 Mar '05 17:07
    Originally posted by Darfius
    Then since God is not empirically invalid, why is it not logical to say He exists?
    It isn't 'illogical' to say he exists. God isn't logically invalid, but he seems to be pretty empirically invalid, since he has yet to prove essential as an explanatory hypothesis for any scientific question.
  9. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    11 Mar '05 17:10
    Originally posted by royalchicken
    It isn't 'illogical' to say he exists. God isn't logically invalid, but he seems to be pretty empirically invalid, since he has yet to prove essential as an explanatory hypothesis for any scientific question.
    Is god flat?
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    11 Mar '05 17:12
    nah, peeky
  11. Standard memberDarfius
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    11 Mar '05 17:12
    Originally posted by royalchicken
    It isn't 'illogical' to say he exists. God isn't logically invalid, but he seems to be pretty empirically invalid, since he has yet to prove essential as an explanatory hypothesis for any scientific question.
    How about "What caused the Big Bang?" Or is there a better theory?
  12. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    11 Mar '05 17:14
    could he have places more flat than othere .. and be a spherical obloid like the earth?
  13. Standard memberroyalchicken
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    11 Mar '05 17:16
    Originally posted by Darfius
    How about "What caused the Big Bang?" Or is there a better theory?
    That question seems illogical: part of the definition of 'cause' requires that the cause occur prior (earlier in time) to the caused. If we're taking the Big Bang to be the beginning of time, then anything being earlier in time is inconceivable. If we do not take the Big Bang to be the beginning of time, then the question is sort of a non-starter--you're trying to use the so-called 'first-cause' argument, but you haven't picked the 'first caused'.
  14. Standard memberDarfius
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    11 Mar '05 17:21
    Originally posted by royalchicken
    That question seems illogical: part of the definition of 'cause' requires that the cause occur prior (earlier in time) to the caused. If we're taking the Big Bang to be the beginning of time, then anything being earlier in time is inconceivable. If we do not take the Big Bang to be the beginning of time, then the question is sort of a non-starter-- ...[text shortened]... ing to use the so-called 'first-cause' argument, but you haven't picked the 'first caused'.
    You're right, anything restricted to this dimension of time is onconceivable. However, God claims to be in at least two dimensions of time. Why could He not have created the universe? Indeed, it is up to you to provide a better theory or--emplying the scientific method--we must embrace the best theory we have at the moment. And God is a lot better than "we don't know."
  15. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    11 Mar '05 17:24
    the universe is pretty flat . though it's more curved than god would have to be.
    God would have to be perfectly flat,, looks like I answered my own question. thanks anyways guys.
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