1. London
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    30 Nov '05 03:10
    Originally posted by echecero
    That may be. Of course, the percentages of homosexuals who abuse children seem to be the same as that of heterosexuals.

    http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/factsheet/fsabuse1.htm#25
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_chil.htm
    http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Sexual_abuse_an_overview?OpenDocument
    http://psycho ...[text shortened]... ller rate of abuse (although that seems to be uncertain, since it hasn't been studied as much).
    Of course, the percentages of homosexuals who abuse children seem to be the same as that of heterosexuals.

    Careful here - are we talking pre- or post-pubescent children?

    Besides, none of the links provided actually supports your assertion.
  2. Joined
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    30 Nov '05 03:23
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    [b]Of course, the percentages of homosexuals who abuse children seem to be the same as that of heterosexuals.

    Careful here - are we talking pre- or post-pubescent children?

    Besides, none of the links provided actually supports your assertion.[/b]
    From the first link:
    "Researchers estimate that between 96 to 100 percent of accused abusers are recognizably heterosexual."
    This would indicate that estimates show a maximum of 4 percent of accused abusers are homosexual. Given that estimates of the general population are that 3 to 5 percent are homosexual, that would support my primary assertion, which preceded the links.

    From the second link:
    "One study involved 175 male adults who had been convicted in Massachusetts of child sexual assault. They found that none of them were homosexuals; all of them would fit the description of a fixated child molester. They were sexually attracted only to children and not to other adults. 2 Another researcher studied sexually abused children seen in a hospital. Only 2 perpetrators (less than 1% of the total) were homosexuals (i.e. were attracted to same-sex adults). "
    This would seem to over-shoot my assertion, but is still in line with it.

    From the third link:
    "Most abusers are heterosexual males from all socio-economic backgrounds."
    True, nothing solid here.

    From the last link:
    "Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in only 2 of the 269 cases in which an adult molester could be identified – fewer than 1% (Jenny et al., 1994)."
    and
    "Are homosexual adults in general sexually attracted to children and are preadolescent children at greater risk of molestation from homosexual adults than from heterosexual adults? There is no reason to believe so. The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. There appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults, and the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual (Groth & Gary, 1982, p. 147)."
    If you read through that site, you'll find a number of further items that concur with my assertion.

    And to clarify your last question is this paragraph from that last site:
    "Whereas pedophilia and hebephilia refer to psychological propensities, child molestation and child sexual abuse are used to describe actual sexual contact between an adult and someone who has not reached the legal age of consent. In this context, someone who has not reached the age of consent is referred to as a child, even though he or she may be a teenager."

    So, back to my statement: it appears that if the move to ban gays from the clergy is to protect children, I think the move should be to have women become priestesses and ban men, since evidence seems to suggest that might actually affect the number of child molesters involved.
  3. London
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    30 Nov '05 04:21
    Originally posted by echecero
    From the first link:
    "Researchers estimate that between 96 to 100 percent of accused abusers are recognizably heterosexual."
    This would indicate that estimates show a maximum of 4 percent of accused abusers are homosexual. Given that estimates of the general population are that 3 to 5 percent are homosexual, that would support my primary assertion, whi ...[text shortened]... nce evidence seems to suggest that might actually affect the number of child molesters involved.
    This would indicate that estimates show a maximum of 4 percent of accused abusers are homosexual. Given that estimates of the general population are that 3 to 5 percent are homosexual, that would support my primary assertion, which preceded the links.

    Actually, 3-5% is the incidence rate for homosexuality - in terms of prevalence that's only about 1%:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation#Incidence_versus_prevalence

    In any case, I'm not saying there is a link between homosexuality and prepubescent abuse. What I would be interested in is the link between homosexuality and postpubescent abuse. Not because I think that homosexual males are more likely to want to abuse postpubescent males than heterosexual males with postpubescent females; but because I think society does a better job of protecting the latter from abuse.
  4. Standard memberNemesio
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    30 Nov '05 05:09
    I'm astounded that we are focusing on the homosexuality issue here.
    I agree with LH in that the incidence of sexual abuse within the Church
    is commensurate with rates outside of it.

    The issue here was that many of the priests were known to be abusers
    and the Church continued to let them be in ministry, often shifting them
    from church to church. While it is horrible that some priests were sexual
    deviants (and there is some merit to the argument that seminary life
    contributed to that), what is truly abominable is the fact that the hierarchy
    going up to the (Arch-)Diocesan (Arch)Bishop (Cardinal) often knew about it
    and did nothing to remedy the situation in an effort to protect the
    Church from scandal.

    Rather than saying: This priest fouled up big time, and we're really sorry and
    he will never ever be paid by the Diocese again and we are pressing charges
    on behalf of the family (Bishop Wuerl did that, actually, in Pittsburgh), most
    Diocese just did a 'hush hush' sort of payment for the families and tried to
    hide it.

    The court cases in Arizona and Boston demonstrate a systematic coverup on
    the part of the hierarchy of the Church
    . This is the true travesty of the
    situation
    -- that the Church sought to protect its own interests above the
    interests of its parishioners and, especially its youth.

    Nemesio
  5. Standard memberKnightWulfe
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    30 Nov '05 14:49
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    I'm astounded that we are focusing on the homosexuality issue here.
    I agree with LH in that the incidence of sexual abuse within the Church
    is commensurate with rates outside of it.

    The issue here was that many of the priests were known to be abusers
    and the Church continued to let them be in ministry, often shifting them
    from church to churc ...[text shortened]... ts own interests above the
    interests of its parishioners and, especially its youth.

    Nemesio
    Which of course is a very Christian thing to do, right?
    It is good and right and true - the Christian way.

    How can people follow a religion when those that teach and lead it are unable to remotely hold to the foundations of that religion? These teachers and leaders of the Christian Church are performing socially, morally and legally unacceptable actions - REGULARLY and have been for YEARS and yet it is over looked, attempts to cover it up are made and there is not even a remote admittance of guilt or accepting rightful actions to be carried out.

    Oye Ve!
  6. London
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    30 Nov '05 14:52
    Originally posted by KnightWulfe
    Which of course is a very Christian thing to do, right?
    It is good and right and true - the Christian way.

    How can people follow a religion when those that teach and lead it are unable to remotely hold to the foundations of that religion? These teachers and leaders of the Christian Church are performing socially, morally and legally unacceptable acti ...[text shortened]... ot even a remote admittance of guilt or accepting rightful actions to be carried out.

    Oye Ve!
    How can people follow a religion when those that teach and lead it are unable to remotely hold to the foundations of that religion?

    Because the teachers and the subject matter are not the same. I don't question the existence of dinosaurs simply because my science teacher is a young-earth creationist.
  7. Felicific Forest
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    30 Nov '05 15:25
    Actually the RCC does not ban gays as such. It is still possible for gay men to be ordained.

    LH, do you happen to have a link to the actual Church approved text ?
  8. Standard memberKnightWulfe
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    30 Nov '05 15:261 edit
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    [b]How can people follow a religion when those that teach and lead it are unable to remotely hold to the foundations of that religion?

    Because the teachers and the subject matter are not the same. I don't question the existence of dinosaurs simply because my science teacher is a young-earth creationist.[/b]
    Yes, that is true, but the priests are more than teachers, they are leaders. In their positions, they should not only talk the talk, they should walk the walk - They should be SHINING examples of what it means to be Christian. Quite bluntly, they (as a whole) are not even close.

    On a side note - being a Christian, how can you not be a YEC, given that it explains all of that in the Bible quite clearly (or so it seemed each time I read it.) - There is no explanation for the pre-historic, at all.
  9. Et in Arcadia ego...
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    30 Nov '05 16:38
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Married men can become priests under certain circumstances. And sex is not a sin.
    hi L.H.!

    You could settle a bet for me, if you are right. Do you have a link to the information that suggests that a lay men who are already married, but considered to have a vocation, can and do become priests?

    Cheers-

    sjeg
  10. London
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    30 Nov '05 16:58
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Actually the RCC does not ban gays as such. It is still possible for gay men to be ordained.

    LH, do you happen to have a link to the actual Church approved text ?
    Here's the full document (footnotes and all):

    http://www.usccb.org/instruction.pdf

    If you don't have Acrobat, then you can read the document (without the footnotes) at:

    http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=40891
  11. London
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    30 Nov '05 17:02
    Originally posted by KnightWulfe
    Yes, that is true, but the priests are more than teachers, they are leaders. In their positions, they should not only talk the talk, they should walk the walk - They should be SHINING examples of what it means to be Christian. Quite bluntly, they (as a whole) are not even close.

    On a side note - being a Christian, how can you not be a YEC, given that ...[text shortened]... y (or so it seemed each time I read it.) - There is no explanation for the pre-historic, at all.
    Yes, that is true, but the priests are more than teachers, they are leaders. In their positions, they should not only talk the talk, they should walk the walk - They should be SHINING examples of what it means to be Christian. Quite bluntly, they (as a whole) are not even close.

    They should be - but that doesn't change the fact that their teaching and the ecclesial authority they hold is far more important than their personal virtues.

    How many US Presidents in the last century were sterling examples of what a President should be? Does that lead you to question the concept of the Presidency itself?

    On a side note - being a Christian, how can you not be a YEC, given that it explains all of that in the Bible quite clearly (or so it seemed each time I read it.) - There is no explanation for the pre-historic, at all.

    You, my friend, need to meet more Christians! 🙂
  12. London
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    30 Nov '05 17:101 edit
    Originally posted by sjeg
    hi L.H.!

    You could settle a bet for me, if you are right. Do you have a link to the information that suggests that a lay men who are already married, but considered to have a vocation, can and do become priests?

    Cheers-

    sjeg
    From the Code of Canon Law (CIC):
    [Can. 1031] §2. A candidate for the permanent diaconate who is not married is not to be admitted to the diaconate until after completing at least the twenty-fifth year of age; one who is married, not until after completing at least the thirty-fifth year of age and with the consent of his wife...

    Can. 1040 Those [affected] by any impediment, whether perpetual, which is called an irregularity, or simple, are prevented from receiving orders. The only impediments incurred, however, are those contained in the following canons...

    Can. 1042 The following are simply impeded from receiving orders:

    1/ a man who has a wife, unless he is legitimately destined to the permanent diaconate;
  13. Standard memberwib
    Stay outta my biznez
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    30 Nov '05 17:21
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    I'm astounded that we are focusing on the homosexuality issue here.
    I agree with LH in that the incidence of sexual abuse within the Church
    is commensurate with rates outside of it.

    The issue here was that many of the priests were known to be abusers
    and the Church continued to let them be in ministry, often shifting them
    from church to churc ...[text shortened]... ts own interests above the
    interests of its parishioners and, especially its youth.

    Nemesio
    And as usual the elephant in the room is ignored.

    Stop bringing up facts Nemesio. Nobody in the "Church" wants to hear that. Plus you're ruining a good story. 🙂
  14. London
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    30 Nov '05 18:24
    Originally posted by wib
    And as usual the elephant in the room is ignored.

    Stop bringing up facts Nemesio. Nobody in the "Church" wants to hear that. Plus you're ruining a good story. 🙂
    The white elephant in the room has been flogged black and blue for five years.

    The question now should be - can we stop this happening in the future?
  15. Standard memberKnightWulfe
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    30 Nov '05 18:39
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    [b]Yes, that is true, but the priests are more than teachers, they are leaders. In their positions, they should not only talk the talk, they should walk the walk - They should be SHINING examples of what it means to be Christian. Quite bluntly, they (as a whole) are not even close.

    They should be - but that doesn't change the fact that their t ...[text shortened]... xplanation for the pre-historic, at all.[/b]

    You, my friend, need to meet more Christians! 🙂[/b]
    They should be - but that doesn't change the fact that their teaching and the ecclesial authority they hold is far more important than their personal virtues.

    I am a firm believer in leading by example. The only thing that the current regime of the priesthood does for me is support the "do as I say not as I do" type of God that Christians worship - Something that is purported in the Bible - New and Old Testaments. I admit that it has been some years since I have read the Bible, but I dont think it has changed since then...or maybe there is a new version?

    How many US Presidents in the last century were sterling examples of what a President should be? Does that lead you to question the concept of the Presidency itself?

    Actually, yes. I do. Given how easy it is for government officials to abuse their power, steal, lie, cheat and otherwise take advantage of the populace...yes. I question it every damned day. I think it is the best PRACTICED form of government that is currently used....but it still sucks.

    You, my friend, need to meet more Christians! 🙂

    Perhaps I do. Or at least more that actually understand what they are following. Most people I know that claim to be Christian have never read the Bible...maybe a passage here or there...but only in Church and they dont even attend any longer. Hell...I am an Atheist and I have read 7 different versions cover to cover and a couple of them twice!
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