Reality

Originally posted by lucifershammer
As I understand it, the Catholic position on salvation boils down to:

1. First and foremost, you need grace (i.e. an unmerited spiritual gift from God).
2. However, grace only means that salvation is available to you, [b]should you choose to accept it.
3. Also, there is nothing you can do to merit grace - neither faith nor works (good ...[text shortened]... gless. Hence grace is inaccessible without works; hence salvation is inaccessible without works.[/b]

Your third point seems to get to the question of what I call “works of the head.” The Greek word pistis (Latin: fide), according to my lexicon searches, meant trust or confidence. The English word “believe” originally meant “to hold dear” which seems to incorporate an element of hope as well as trust. But in contemporary English, believe can also mean an opinion, a conclusion, an intellectual assent—what you think. When these understandings are blurred, it seems to me that it can lead to a kind of “think right and be saved” position, particularly endemic to Protestantism (where I grew up).

I sometimes describe faith in terms of the quarterback who throws the long bomb in the final seconds of the game. He really has no idea whether or not the ball will result in a touchdown, or even be caught. There are many factors outside his control. But if he does not throw the ball with confidence (as well as skill and determination), the chances for a favorable outcome diminish. (A limited analogy, to be sure.)

With all that said, I find that arguments about salvation, in the sense of some sort of afterlife, really no longer move me a great deal—let alone being of what Paul Tillich called “ultimate concern.” The question is simply one that I no longer ask. So I take no position in this debate at all, except to wish for greater clarity about this word “faith.”

Originally posted by vistesd
With all that said, I find that arguments about salvation, in the sense of some sort of afterlife, really no longer move me a great deal—let alone being of what Paul Tillich called “ultimate concern.” The question is simply one that I no longer ask. So I take no position in this debate at all, except to wish for greater clarity about this word “faith.”

May I ask why?

After all, it seems to me that few questions can be more important to a person than the question of what the purpose of his life is.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
May I ask why?

After all, it seems to me that few questions can be more important to a person than the question of what the purpose of his life is.

Fair enough. Let’s just say that I don’t find “salvation” (in the sense that I mentioned above) to be the “answer” for the either the question “what is the purpose of life?” or the question “how shall I live?”

That’s all I can really say here. My error, perhaps in posting that to begin with…

Originally posted by no1marauder
Please clarify your position: the other Fundies here believe that faith ALONE is sufficient to gain the "grace" of eternal salvation. Do you agree with them or not? Is faith necessary but not sufficient in your view? Are works, as mentioned by Jesus and James i.e. acts of charity and compassion, necessary or not necessary?

The King ...[text shortened]... is more important as you assert. Please answer that question as you keep ignoring my prior ones.

What about Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This text clearly shows that your works alone cannot save you. You have to do the will of the father in Heaven. Maybe you would like to point out how this is done without faith? As I said before I belive that your faith is accompanied by works. Faith and works are inseperable. But works alone cannot save you.

Originally posted by dj2becker
What about Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many [b]wonderful works? 23 And then will ...[text shortened]... faith is accompanied by works. Faith and works are inseperable. But works alone cannot save you.[/b]

Try guessing what " Ye that work iniquity" means in the context of 7:23 , before you go off into dark side again.

You still don't understand the word of the Kingdom, maybe you never will , stop fighting it.

also "faith" as used by Christ is in conjuction with healing the sick and maybe you should read Mark 16 before you try to use it to modify Matthew 25

Originally posted by frogstomp
Try guessing what " Ye that work iniquity" means in the context of 7:23 , before you go off into dark side again.

You still don't understand the word of the Kingdom, maybe you never will , stop fighting it. ...[text shortened]... read Mark 16 before you try to use it to modify Matthew 25

You still don't understand the word of the Kingdom, maybe you never will , stop fighting it.

So have you chopped off your right arm and plucked out your eye?

PS: And am still waiting for you to point out how a man can be born again without faith.

Originally posted by dj2becker
What about Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many [b]wonderful works? 23 And then will ...[text shortened]... faith is accompanied by works. Faith and works are inseperable. But works alone cannot save you.[/b]

Fair enough. Perhaps you'd care to explain why Jesus did not mention faith as a requirement for salvation when he explicitly discussed Judgement Day in Matthew 25. Please avoid the argument that this is merely "a piece of scripture" as you stated in another thread; I would presume God describing the day it will be decided who goes to Heaven and Hell would be somewhat more important than she bears killing 42 boys because they called a guy "baldhead".

Originally posted by no1marauder
Please avoid the argument that this is merely "a piece of scripture" as you stated in another thread; I would presume God describing the day it will be decided who goes to Heaven and Hell would be somewhat more important than she bears killing 42 boys because they called a guy "baldhead".[/b]

Fair enough. Perhaps you'd care to explain why Jesus did not mention faith as a requirement for salvation when he explicitly discussed Judgement Day in Matthew 25.

I would say he did not mention faith in Matthew 25 because he had already mentioned a lot of other requirements of salvation in earlier parts. Why should he mention all the requirements in one parable if he uses more than one parable to discuss that topic? He mentions different requirements at different times. I don't think it is very wise to just accept that faith is not neccessary for salvation simply because it is not mentioned in Matthew 25. It is neccessary to look at all the passages where Jesus discusses salvation. I have already given you a few of these examples. I'll gladly give you more if you would like some.

Regards,
Daniel