30 May 05
1 edit
Originally posted by lucifershammerThe dispute is over the Fundie's belief that works are not necessary for salvation; that simply "I'm saved" means you are. Matthew 25 ( Christ's words) describe Judgment Day in terms of salvation being decided SOLELY on how one treats his fellow man. The Fundies on this site absolutely hate that idea since it ruins their idea of a small, Elect group being part of God's ultimate plan only (and, of course, they insist LOUDLY that group contains them). To counter the clear words of Matthew 25, they claim it has to be read in "context" of the entire Scripture; the "context" they propose is invariably writings of Paul who stated grace alone and not "works" get you to Heaven. The question is why are Paul's words necessary to interpret a passage of Jesus' words when those words are clear and unambiguous? And further, why are Paul's words more important than James in James 2 who clearly states that works are necessary?
Why don't you tell us exactly what it is you understand from Matt 25 and how Paul's writings contradict your understanding?
I'm fairly certain that RCC doctrine rejects the "grace only" doctrine and stresses, like Jesus did, the necessity of good works. This doctrine is one of the pillars of Protestantism, which is a Middle Ages invention. It is well known that their was a theological dispute in the early Church between Paul's and James' views. My understanding is that most Catholic theologians interpret Paul's use of the word "works" to mean Pharisee like manifestions like praying loudly or building shrines or saying how you are saved and others aren't; and Jesus and James' words to mean the acts of mercy and compassion towards your fellow man that Jesus stressed. Those there is no necessary contradiction. You'll have to ask the Fundies why they think there is (obviously Calvinist Coletti believes that whatever we do on Earth has no effect on our predestined status of being a member of the eternally saved Elect or the eternally damned 99% Everybody Else).
30 May 05
Originally posted by no1marauderWell said
The dispute is over the Fundie's belief that works are not necessary for salvation; that simply "I'm saved" means you are. Matthew 25 ( Christ's words) describe Judgment Day in terms of salvation being decided SOLELY on how one treats his fellow man. The Fundies on this site absolutely hate that idea since it ruins their idea of a small, ...[text shortened]... tus of being a member of the eternally saved Elect or the eternally damned 99% Everybody Else).
- Joined
- 01 Oct 04
- Moves
- 12095
31 May 05
Originally posted by no1marauderThe dispute is over the Fundie's belief that works are not necessary for salvation; that simply "I'm saved" means you are.
The dispute is over the Fundie's belief that works are not necessary for salvation; that simply "I'm saved" means you are. Matthew 25 ( Christ's words) describe Judgment Day in terms of salvation being decided SOLELY on how one treats his fellow man. The Fundies on this site absolutely hate that idea since it ruins their idea of a small, ...[text shortened]... tus of being a member of the eternally saved Elect or the eternally damned 99% Everybody Else).
I don't agree. It is not only by works that we are saved. Works reveal your faith. Works without faith is dead, as is faith without works.
James 2:20 - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Matthew 25 ( Christ's words) describe Judgment Day in terms of salvation being decided SOLELY on how one treats his fellow man.
What about Christ's words in Matthew 18:3 - And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Would you be so kind as to explain how man can be converted without faith?
John 3:3 - Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
The Fundies on this site absolutely hate that idea since it ruins their idea of a small, Elect group being part of God's ultimate plan only (and, of course, they insist LOUDLY that group contains them).
All you need to do is read the words spoken by Christ.
Matthew 7:13,14 - Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
To counter the clear words of Matthew 25, they claim it has to be read in "context" of the entire Scripture; the "context" they propose is invariably writings of Paul who stated grace alone and not "works" get you to Heaven.
Excatly. The entire scripture does not only contain the words of Paul.
James 2:20 - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Where does it say that it is by works only that we are saved?
31 May 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerDid you write your own Bible? The American Standard Version gives Matthew 18:3 as this:
[b] The dispute is over the Fundie's belief that works are not necessary for salvation; that simply "I'm saved" means you are.
I don't agree. It is not only by works that we are saved. Works reveal your faith. Works without faith is dead, as is faith without works.
James 2:20 - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead ...[text shortened]... ut works is dead also.
Where does it say that it is by works only that we are saved?
[/b]
3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.
So much for your "converted" argument.
James 2 is clear; quoting parts of it out of context as both you and Coletti do is dishonest. James stresses works and says faith is nothing without them. That is his message; works don't "reveal" your faith - faith is NOTHING without works.
You have not, and cannot address the fact, that Jesus himself in describing Judgment Day in Matthew 25 never mentions faith at all. At most, you assert that the Bible is contradictory. Where does it say only by works we are saved? In the clear words of Matthew 25. Please deal with those words of the person you supposedly believe was God without relying on human surrogates.
31 May 05
dj quoted my entire first paragraph except for these two questions:
The question is why are Paul's words necessary to interpret a passage of Jesus' words when those words are clear and unambiguous? And further, why are Paul's words more important than James in James 2 who clearly states that works are necessary?
An answer to those questions would be appreciated.
- Joined
- 01 Oct 04
- Moves
- 12095
31 May 05
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderDid you write your own Bible? The American Standard Version gives Matthew 18:3 as this:
Did you write your own Bible? The American Standard Version gives Matthew 18:3 as this:
3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the king ...[text shortened]... ou supposedly believe was God without relying on human surrogates.
3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.
So much for your "converted" argument.
Ever heard of the King James Version?
James 2 is clear; quoting parts of it out of context as both you and Coletti do is dishonest. James stresses works and says faith is nothing without them. That is his message; works don't "reveal" your faith - faith is NOTHING without works.
Where does it say that works is anything without faith?
What do you have to say about James 2:5 "Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?"
You have not, and cannot address the fact, that Jesus himself in describing Judgment Day in Matthew 25 never mentions faith at all.
Are you suggesting that one portion in the Bible, where faith is not mentioned, can cause you to deduce that faith is not neccessary, if indeed nothing is said in the line that faith is not neccessary?!
Do you know that the word "faith" appears 303 times in 279 verses in the New Testament. But the word "works" only appears 118 times in 108 verses in the New Testament? How can you then say that faith is not at all necessary?
You have not answered my question concerning the verse where Jesus said in John 3:3 - "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
How can a man be born again without faith?
31 May 05
4 edits
Originally posted by dj2beckerPlease clarify your position: the other Fundies here believe that faith ALONE is sufficient to gain the "grace" of eternal salvation. Do you agree with them or not? Is faith necessary but not sufficient in your view? Are works, as mentioned by Jesus and James i.e. acts of charity and compassion, necessary or not necessary?
[/b][b/] Did you write your own Bible? The American Standard Version gives Matthew 18:3 as this:
3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kin ...[text shortened]... ngdom of God."
How can a man be born again without faith?
[/b/]
The King James version is the only one I can find that uses the term "converted" in Matthew 18:3. Since you used that one word to "prove" your argument, I would say that's a pretty frail reed. As others have pointed out numerous times, John 3:3's "born again" is a translation error which should be "born from above" or something to that effect. Again this a pretty frail reed as you are in error.
Matthew 25 was God himself, in your view, discussing Judgment Day and what will happen. Nowhere else does Jesus give a specific description of this all-important occasion. I ask you to give me a reason why he only mentioned good works as the criteria for salvation IF faith is more important as you assert. Please answer that question as you keep ignoring my prior ones.
31 May 05
Originally posted by no1marauderAs I understand it, the Catholic position on salvation boils down to:
I'm fairly certain that RCC doctrine rejects the "grace only" doctrine and stresses, like Jesus did, the necessity of good works. This doctrine is one of the pillars of Protestantism, which is a Middle Ages invention. It is well known that their was a theological dispute in the early Church between Paul's and James' views. My understanding is that ...[text shortened]... tus of being a member of the eternally saved Elect or the eternally damned 99% Everybody Else).
1. First and foremost, you need grace (i.e. an unmerited spiritual gift from God).
2. However, grace only means that salvation is available to you, should you choose to accept it.
3. Also, there is nothing you can do to merit grace - neither faith nor works (good deeds) gives you the right to stand up to God and demand grace/salvation. Here, "merit" is used in the normal sense of "deserve" or "earn" (e.g. I merited an A+ in this course because I worked hard and answered all the exam questions correctly).
4. To access the grace that is available, however, you need faith.
5. Faith is meaningless without works - so effectively you need both faith and works to access grace (and subsequently salvation).
To me, Mt 25 always made point (5); i.e. faith without works is meaningless. Hence grace is inaccessible without works; hence salvation is inaccessible without works.
31 May 05
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderOf course "Grace" is actually given out by whatever church the poster belongs to.
Please clarify your position: the other Fundies here believe that faith ALONE is sufficient to gain the "grace" of eternal salvation. Do you agree with them or not? Is faith necessary but not sufficient in your view? Are work ...[text shortened]... t. Please answer that question as you keep ignoring my prior ones.
31 May 05
Originally posted by frogstompNope. Grace is always from God. Talking of churches "giving out" grace is meaningless unless you are talking about churches with sacraments. Even in that case, the grace is always from God.
Of course "Grace" is actually given out by whatever church the poster belongs to.
31 May 05
2 edits
Originally posted by lucifershammerThank you for a clear exposition of the Catholic doctrine which was rather hazy in my memory from secondary school long ago. There are passages in the Bible from Paul which have been quoted before by the Fundies saying works are of no importance. Do you have an opinion on the issue of whether Paul was using the term "works" in a different sense from James?
[b/]As I understand it, the Catholic position on salvation boils down to:
1. First and foremost, you need grace (i.e. an unmerited spiritual gift from God).
2. However, grace only means that salvation is available to you, should ...[text shortened]... ible without works; hence salvation is inaccessible without works.
31 May 05
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderI can't think of any Pauline quotes on works offhand, but I do seem to recall some verses where he's used "works" in the sense that you've described; i.e. as meaningless external show (similar to the Pharisees). But I also think there are verses (particularly in Romans) where he uses "works" to mean "deeds". As I recall it, these were in the context of it not being possible to merit salvation because of deeds.
Thank you for a clear exposition of the Catholic doctrine which was rather hazy in my memory from secondary school long ago. There are passages in the Bible from Paul which have been quoted before by the Fundies saying works are ...[text shortened]... Paul was using the term "works" in a different sense from James?
31 May 05
1 edit
Originally posted by lucifershammerThere are other threads where RBHILL and others quote Pauline passages to support their assertion that works are not necessary, but I'm toooooooo lazy to find them now. If they want to cite them here and continue the discussion as to why they believe that assertion is so, I'd be interested to hear them though from past experiences they usually resort quickly to the "Secret Decoder Ring" defense ("We're Christians and you're not, so the Holy Spirit has given us understanding that you lack"😉.😛
I can't think of any Pauline quotes on works offhand, but I do seem to recall some verses where he's used "works" in the sense that you've described; i.e. as meaningless external show (similar to the Pharisees). But I also think ...[text shortened]... text of it not being possible to merit salvation because of deeds.
31 May 05
Originally posted by no1marauderSecret decoder ring. LOL. 😀
There are other threads where RBHILL and others quote Pauline passages to support their assertion that works are not necessary, but I'm toooooooo lazy to find them now. If they want to cite them here and continue the discussion as to why they believe that assertion is so, I'd be interested to hear them though from past experiences they usuall ...[text shortened]... re Christians and you're not, so the Holy Spirit has given us understanding that you lack"😉.😛