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1. As has been argued by philosophers before me, God can not be both omnipotent and perfectly loving. - Take for example an infant dying from a terminal disease. God either can't or won't intervene. If he 'cannot' then He is not omnipotent, and if he 'will not' then He is not perfectly loving. With the existence of such suffering of the innocent, it is impossible for God to be both all powerful and all loving.
2. If God is the creator of the world, the designer of everything we survey, then every living creature is a testament to the kind of deity He is. - Recently I watched a documentary about a parasite whose sole occupation in life was to invade the brain of an ant and turn it into a virtual zombie, half way between life and death. It would then control the ant and have it climb the highest tree possible before bursting through the ant's skull with spores that fell to the surrounding area, so that the cycle could continue. - Why would an all loving God design and create such a thing?!
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@ghost-of-a-duke said"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean NOT on your own understanding".
1. As has been argued by philosophers before me, God can not be both omnipotent and perfectly loving. - Take for example an infant dying from a terminal disease. God either can't or won't intervene. If he 'cannot' then He is not omnipotent, and if he 'will not' then He is not perfectly loving. With the existence of such suffering of the innocent, it is impossible for ...[text shortened]... hat the cycle could continue. - Why would an all loving God design and create such a thing?!
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Proverbs 3:5
While I realize that this is most difficult, it's the only way to cope with fact that it's a futile effort for a human mind to try to make sense of what God does and does not do.
Edit: also, for me, the existence of human suffering does not negate the existence of God. I have come to terms with the fact that God exists, despite the many many things I have no explanation for, or the many things I cannot understand
@ghost-of-a-duke saidTo be loving means you give the opposing party the opportunity to love you back. If you force them to love you, it is not love anymore. Once they reject the source of love and life, what are they embracing?
1. As has been argued by philosophers before me, God can not be both omnipotent and perfectly loving. - Take for example an infant dying from a terminal disease. God either can't or won't intervene. If he 'cannot' then He is not omnipotent, and if he 'will not' then He is not perfectly loving. With the existence of such suffering of the innocent, it is impossible for ...[text shortened]... hat the cycle could continue. - Why would an all loving God design and create such a thing?!
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To not have the option to love or reject means that it must happen at some point.
Hence the flaw in their reasoning.
05 May 19
@chaney3 said🙂
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean NOT on your own understanding".
Proverbs 3:5
While I realize that this is most difficult, it's the only way to cope with fact that it's a futile effort for a human mind to try to make sense of what God does and does not do.
Edit: also, for me, the existence of human suffering does not negate the existence of God. I ha ...[text shortened]... ists, despite the many many things I have no explanation for, or the many things I cannot understand
05 May 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWhilst I acknowledge your personal steadfastness in these arguments they do not hold sufficient depth of insight to convince me of the non existence of God. I had an exchange once with LemonJello on this very topic and he was very, shall I say, smug in his assertion that this piece of philosophical logic was proof. It isn’t proof, it is an evidence but it is by its very nature circumstantial.
1. As has been argued by philosophers before me, God can not be both omnipotent and perfectly loving. - Take for example an infant dying from a terminal disease. God either can't or won't intervene. If he 'cannot' then He is not omnipotent, and if he 'will not' then He is not perfectly loving. With the existence of such suffering of the innocent, it is impossible for ...[text shortened]... hat the cycle could continue. - Why would an all loving God design and create such a thing?!
3...
We are the custodians of this world and God permits us to err... ‘custode’. Suffering is part of the world we have enabled through our choices as are the horrid things in nature which have evolved, yes evolved. Which of course is a very interesting thought.
Of course some Christians here have no issue with the concept of suffering here because they believe in eternal hell. But they will have an issue with the evolution of the skull zombie ant thing!
What makes God unbelievable? Eternal hell, cults, control, exclusivity, lack of compassion, lack of mercy.
@ghost-of-a-duke said3. The books they call "holy" are filled with clear contradictions, fantasy, fairy tales and outright lies. Clearly they are manmade and not divine.
1. As has been argued by philosophers before me, God can not be both omnipotent and perfectly loving. - Take for example an infant dying from a terminal disease. God either can't or won't intervene. If he 'cannot' then He is not omnipotent, and if he 'will not' then He is not perfectly loving. With the existence of such suffering of the innocent, it is impossible for ...[text shortened]... hat the cycle could continue. - Why would an all loving God design and create such a thing?!
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4. Question: If you were this omnipotent being that Christians worship just for a day, how would you change in the world ?
My answer: End the needless suffering and deaths of the innocents .
I suddenly feel more moral than the Christian god is portrayed.
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05 May 19
@divegeester saidI would have been disappointed sir if my OP had caused you to suddenly lose your faith. 😉
Whilst I acknowledge your personal steadfastness in these arguments they do not hold sufficient depth of insight to convince me of the non existence of God. I had an exchange once with LemonJello on this very topic and he was very, shall I say, smug in his assertion that this piece of philosophical logic was proof. It isn’t proof, it is an evidence but it is by its very n ...[text shortened]... akes God unbelievable? Eternal hell, cults, control, exclusivity, lack of compassion, lack of mercy.
I could have titled this thread 'proof' that God does not exist, but that indeed would have been a little smug. I chose instead 'reasons for disbelief' which I deemed a little more reasonable.
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05 May 19
@caissad4 said2 excellent points.
3. The books they call "holy" are filled with clear contradictions, fantasy, fairy tales and outright lies. Clearly they are manmade and not divine.
4. Question: If you were this omnipotent being that Christians worship just for a day, how would you change in the world ?
My answer: End the needless suffering and deaths of the innocents .
I suddenly feel more moral than the Christian god is portrayed.
05 May 19
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
I thought this was supposed to be proof that the Christian God does not exist.
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05 May 19
@chaney3 saidPersonally, I could never believe in something that wasn't concordant with my reasoning.
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean NOT on your own understanding".
Proverbs 3:5
While I realize that this is most difficult, it's the only way to cope with fact that it's a futile effort for a human mind to try to make sense of what God does and does not do.
Edit: also, for me, the existence of human suffering does not negate the existence of God. I ha ...[text shortened]... ists, despite the many many things I have no explanation for, or the many things I cannot understand
Welcome back.
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05 May 19
@eladar saidNo, this thread is about 'reasons for disbelief.'
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
I thought this was supposed to be proof that the Christian God does not exist.
The 'proof that God does not exist' was in the other thread, to counter your silly proposition.
@chaney3 saidHumans writing about god. Sure. It could happen.....
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean NOT on your own understanding".
Proverbs 3:5
While I realize that this is most difficult, it's the only way to cope with fact that it's a futile effort for a human mind to try to make sense of what God does and does not do.
Edit: also, for me, the existence of human suffering does not negate the existence of God. I ha ...[text shortened]... ists, despite the many many things I have no explanation for, or the many things I cannot understand
How about the really dumb story about Noah and the flood. So this alleged god gets so ticked off with one nasty tribe of humans, it prefers to kill all the land animals except for the few on the Ark. Sure. It could happen.
So kill all humans and land animals on the planet and then condemn the ones on the Ark to permanent genetic damage.
Of course the genetic range of animals are just fine so the plot loses a bit of street cred.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidGod created the universe and called it very good, we were created in God's image, so this is the fundamental point of disagreement, can that be real looking at the world around us? If God is love, so anything He did would have had to been done out of God’s loving nature! Can love be at the heart of all He did in creation given everything we see around us today, can that be true?
1. As has been argued by philosophers before me, God can not be both omnipotent and perfectly loving. - Take for example an infant dying from a terminal disease. God either can't or won't intervene. If he 'cannot' then He is not omnipotent, and if he 'will not' then He is not perfectly loving. With the existence of such suffering of the innocent, it is impossible for ...[text shortened]... hat the cycle could continue. - Why would an all loving God design and create such a thing?!
3...
If love is at the heart of it all, than that means His creation had to have the ability to say no, it had to have the ability to walk away otherwise there could be no truth, or meaning without real love! The reason God had to let them walk away was because God could not force them to stay, and have a real loving relationship between them and God, it has to be real! Walking away meant a great divorce, using the term CS Lewis used when he wrote about man and God. The consequences of that walking away has carried with it all that causes us pain, and is destructive in reality?
God created life to have the ability to really love! You think God who knows all things, understands all things would only want a robotic creature who doesn’t have a choice, who cannot express real love? If real, don't loving relationships have to be reciprocated by both parties? If one refuses love could God use force to make it real, can trickery, bribes, or threats make someone really love another?
If true love isn’t our guiding force in the universe, and God is love, don’t you think without God our views are therefore going to be something less than, the realities we makeup in our hearts are going to be a warped versions without real love, without real meaning in them, always on the outside looking in the glass darkly!
Going forward from the day of judgment and the great wedding day of Christ and the church, those that love the Lord and each other will enter into God’s eternal Kingdom. The love that we have here and now in Christ Jesus will be what sets some apart from those given over to evil and wickedness the life here without God. With God in our lives we will be able to forgive all the wrongs done to us, to help all of those that need us, meeting people’s needs regardless of how good or bad they have been, even to our enemies, all of that without judging who is worthy or not!
The world without God’s love is an evil place, where there are bad and evil things occurring. This is a direct result of the godless choices we make, where all of us suffer very real consequences from what we and others do to one another. The cause of suffering, the cause of pain is the avoidance of a real good and love we see and get from God as we cling to the selfishness of man.
You really should watch those videos, the speakers are much more elegant and thoughtful speakers than I am. Granted that is a very low bar, but there you go.
05 May 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidAcknowledged, it’s a good topic and I get your point.
I would have been disappointed sir if my OP had caused you to suddenly lose your faith. 😉
I could have titled this thread 'proof' that God does not exist, but that indeed would have been a little smug. I chose instead 'reasons for disbelief' which I deemed a little more reasonable.
