Originally posted by @vivifyDid I tell anyone not to pay their taxes? No.
Romans 13:6-7:
[b]This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue
Jesus on whether or not to pay Caesar's taxes: "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s".[/b]
Once again words are being put into my mouth.
Luckily God only asks for 1/10 and the tithe is NOT Progressive.
Naturally, Progs like Suzy know better and demand more from those who make more and tax far more than 1/10.
Too bad God is not as smart as elitists like Suzy.
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Originally posted by @suzianneAnd the American people elected the most corrupt and unlikable candidate in the DNC primary in one Hillary Clinton, and the GOP elected Trump who is also hated.
"Just over half (54% ) of Americans surveyed in fall by Pew Research Center said they pay about the right amount in taxes considering what they get from the federal government, versus 40% who said they pay more than their fair share. But in a separate 2015 survey by the Center, some six-in-ten Americans said they were bothered a lot by the feeling that “so ...[text shortened]... arch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/13/high-income-americans-pay-most-income-taxes-but-enough-to-be-fair/
In fact, Congress has only had an approval rating of around 15% for decades yet the American people keep electing them
If you had not noticed, the American people are not the sharpest tacks.
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Originally posted by @whodeyCalling taxation "tyranny" is an indirect way of saying people shouldn't pay taxes.
Did I tell anyone not to pay their taxes? No.
Once again words are being put into my mouth.
Luckily God only asks for 1/10 and the tithe is NOT Progressive.
Naturally, Progs like Suzy know better and demand more from those who make more and tax far more than 1/10.
Too bad God is not as smart as elitists like Suzy.
And why do you agree with Franklin's quote about taxing people a tenth of their income being a bad thing, but are fine with the bible commanding the same?
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Originally posted by @vivifyDid I say I agree with it? No, I just said it give me a chuckle because the country is far from what it once was and far from what they set out to create. Had the Founding Fathers been born today, they would probably all be in jail or worse
Calling taxation "tyranny" is an indirect way of saying people shouldn't pay taxes.
And why do you agree with Franklin's quote about taxing people a tenth of their income being a bad thing, but are fine with the bible commanding the same?
As for Ben Franklin and his religious views, he is not what you would call a Bible thumper.
He once said of Jesus.
Here is my Creed: I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by his Providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable Service we can render to him, is doing Good to his other Children…. I think the System of Morals [devised by Jesus] and his Religion as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity
In terms of tyrannies, the Roman Empire was the most tyrannical of them all, yet Jesus never rose up against it nor did he rally others to do so.
The kingdom of God is not of this world. Most men in this world have either been slaves or fighting in wars for various tyrants. And today, there are more slaves in the world than at any other time in human history. It's just the way of the world till Jesus returns.
Funny how some things never change.
Originally posted by @fmfThe main moral dimension is opposition to injustice. This doesn't change with religious perspective.
What do the religionists here think about this assertion by Benjamin Franklin?
As for the non-religionists here, what are the moral dimensions of "rebellion against tyrants"?
As for biblical support for rebellion against tyranny, there are plenty of examples in the OT of tyrants getting overthrown. Israel and Judah had many bad Kings (and Queens) that had to be violently ousted.
Originally posted by @vivifyYou’re misquoting the first part of Jesus’ statement and leaving off the rest of the quote (as atheists often do.)
Romans 13:6-7:
[b]This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue
Jesus on whether or not to pay Caesar's taxes: "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s".[/b]
The full quote is:
“They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.”
(Matthew 22:21)
Jesus was essentially saying, “Everything belongs to God.” Why was He being circumspect? Look at the whole passage:
“Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.
And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.
Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.”
(Matthew 22:15-22)
The Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus. If Jesus said it was lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, He would anger many Jews who were His followers and who wanted to rebel against the Roman government. If Jesus said it was not lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, the Pharisees could report that to the Romans and claim Jesus was encouraging a revolt against paying taxes.
Jesus gave a very artful answer which, when quoted in full, says everything belongs to God.
And He is, of course, correct.
Originally posted by @romans1009I didn't "misquote" anything.
You’re misquoting the first part of Jesus’ statement and leaving off the rest of the quote (as atheists often do.)
The full quote is:
“They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.”
The full meaning is "give to God what is God's, and give to the government what is the government's", which in this case, is taxes.
Originally posted by @vivifyBut, let's drop the idea that slavery is equal to tyranny, eh? When the Old Testament was written, slavery was common. That's hardly the same as the tyranny of a people who should have been free and equal to begin with.
You don't see the utter logical flaw in using the Declaration of Independence to defend the Bible? Will you use the Geneva Convention to defend Jehovah's Witnesses?
Your post has no logical foundation.
And how is it "cherry-picking" when I quoted Peter, who not only wrote 2 books of the Bible and is generally considered the greatest Apostle (to the ...[text shortened]... his church?
That's not "cherry-picking". That's contextual, accurate quoting of the Bible.
Originally posted by @vivifyMore Calvinistic excuse-making.
Romans 13:6-7:
[b]This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue
Jesus on whether or not to pay Caesar's taxes: "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s".[/b]
Originally posted by @whodeyYou and others like you still bang this drum about Clinton being corrupt, but have you even noticed what's currently going on in the White House? He's making Clinton look like Bo-Peep.
And the American people elected the most corrupt and unlikable candidate in the DNC primary in one Hillary Clinton, and the GOP elected Trump who is also hated.
In fact, Congress has only had an approval rating of around 15% for decades yet the American people keep electing them
If you had not noticed, the American people are not the sharpest tacks.
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Originally posted by @suzianneWhoa....you're kidding, right?
But, let's drop the idea that slavery is equal to tyranny, eh? When the Old Testament was written, slavery was common. That's hardly the same as the tyranny of a people who should have been free and equal to begin with.
Drop the idea that slavery is tyranny? Slavery is the ultimate form of tyranny. You can't possibly be more oppressed than to be a slave, with no rights, treated like property.
"That's hardly the same as the tyranny of a people who should have been free and equal to begin with.
There's SO many things wrong with this statement.
"Should have been free and equal to begin with"
1. Are you saying the slaves referred to in the Bible should NOT have been free and equal to begin with? Who do you believe "should have been free", then?
2. The Bible says the Jews were liberated slaves themselves, in Egypt: do they now have the right to enslave others? You see nothing incredibly immoral with that?
3. Is oppression any less abhorrent if it's "commonplace"?
Is oppression against women any less wrong if it's "commonplace"?
How about back when calling blacks n***er was "commonplace"? Did that make ANY less terrible?
Are you willing to minimize slavery in America with "well, it was commonplace"?
What about the virulent homophobia and the stoning of gays? Not so bad if everyone did it, right?
These are shocking words coming from you. You sound like every far-right conservative whose beliefs you claim to rail against.
Originally posted by @suzianneSo the Bible offers you no guidance on when the "duty" to rebel kicks in and about the nature of the rebellion?
Regardless of what you think I think, the Bible does not tell us everything. In fact, because it is not universally comprehensive, it often moves people to do exactly the wrong thing for exactly the wrong reasons. Sometimes, though, humans can get lucky and actually do the right thing, regardless.
Originally posted by @fmfThere is no duty to rebel. A follow of Christ should submit, partly because Christian Saints should live apart from this world and submit to rulers and governments because God placed them there.
So the Bible offers you no guidance on when the "duty" to rebel kicks in and about the nature of the rebellion?
Everyone must obey state authorities, because no authority exists without God's permission, and the existing authorities have been put there by God. Whoever opposes the existing authority opposes what God has ordered; and anyone who does so will bring judgment on himself. (Romans 13:1-3 GNB)