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Originally posted by @romans1009You addressed? Lying to the HS and they "went to heaven'?
I already addressed Annanias and Sapphira. You don’t remember? Yes, God killed them for lying to the Holy Spirit as an example to early Christians, but where in the Bible does it say they lost their salvation?
You are a comedian... lol: D
Here are more:
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Peter 2:20-21 KJV)
Professed followers of Christ escape the pollutions of the world through the blood of Christ, Yes.
But if they go back into that lifestyle their end would be worse than if they are not known Christ in the first place
No automatic good works theory like you claim.
Those with HS dont automatically live righteously.
Those with Gods Spirit dont have a free enter 'heaven' card.
You are sadly mistaken. You dont read your bible.
Originally posted by @rajk999How do you interpret this verse?
You addressed? Lying to the HS and they "went to heaven'?
You are a comedian... lol: D
Here are more:
[i]For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better fo ...[text shortened]... t dont have a free enter 'heaven' card.
You are sadly mistaken. You dont read your bible.[/b]
“And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”
(Ephesians 4:30)
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Originally posted by @romans1009It says do not continue with sin [do not grieve the HS], but live righteously otherwise you will not inherit the Kingdom of God
How do you interpret this verse?
“And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”
(Ephesians 4:30)
The word 'sealed' is mistakenly interpreted by Christians to mean a guarantee of eternal life. Sealed simply means that a Christian with Gods Spirit is earmarked as a believer and as such is required to live a certain lifestyle according to the guidance of the HS otherwise there are dire consequences. Passages which I have quoted speak clearly of this punishment and destruction awaiting Christians who disobey the guidance of Gods Spirit.
Here is the whole passage:
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
(Ephesians 4:30-5:5 KJV)
SINFUL CHRISTIAN SAINTS HAVE NO INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD
Paul said it about a dozen times.
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Originally posted by @rajk999We already went over this, but to refresh your memory, the last part of that excerpt from Ephesians - “For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” - is not saying anyone who sins has no inheritance in the Kingdom of God. It is saying that people who commit sins so frequently that they can be (or are) identified by the sins (whoremonger, idolater, covetous man, etc.) will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
It says do not continue with sin [do not grieve the HS], but live righteously otherwise you will not inherit the Kingdom of God
The word 'sealed' is mistakenly interpreted by Christians to mean a guarantee of eternal life. Sealed simply means that a Christian with Gods Spirit is earmarked as a believer and as such is required to live a certain lifestyle ...[text shortened]... ISTIAN SAINTS HAVE NO INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD
Paul said it about a dozen times.[/b]
But you may be suggesting the same thing as you refer to “sinful Christians” not inheriting the Kingdom of God.
So let me (again) ask you this:
Is it your position that once someone accepts Christ and becomes a Christian, he or she cannot commit a single sin and still inherit eternal life?
Is that your position?
Originally posted by @romans1009I answered already. Christ will judge all people.
We already went over this, but to refresh your memory, the last part of that excerpt from Ephesians - “For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” - is not saying anyone who sins has no inheritance in the Kingdom of God. It is saying that peopl ...[text shortened]... , he or she cannot commit a single sin and still inherit eternal life?
Is that your position?
Your questions are asking me to judge people.
Some sins are forgiven and some are not.
Originally posted by @rajk999<<Your questions are asking me to judge people.
I answered already. Christ will judge all people.
Your questions are asking me to judge people.
Some sins are forgiven and some are not.
Some sins are forgiven and some are not.>>
Since you’ve said several times that I’m among the “goats” who are going to hell, how is that not an example of you judging people and deciding sins I have committed - which you know nothing about and can’t identify - cannot be forgiven?
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Originally posted by @rajk999<I answered already. Christ will judge all people.>
I answered already. Christ will judge all people.
Your questions are asking me to judge people.
Some sins are forgiven and some are not.
We agree on that, but not to the extent of determining salvation. The judgments of the saved and damned are separate judgments - people are either saved or damned prior to physical death based on whether they accepted Christ. I know you don’t believe this, but I really have no interest in repeating how good works are a manifestation of salvation and not a requirement of it and everything else I’ve said and repeated for close to two weeks.
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Originally posted by @romans1009First I never said anything about going to hell. Heaven and hell is part of your language, not mine.
<<Your questions are asking me to judge people.
Some sins are forgiven and some are not.>>
Since you’ve said several times that I’m among the “goats” who are going to hell, how is that not an example of you judging people and deciding sins I have committed - which you know nothing about and can’t identify - cannot be forgiven?
Jesus defined a goat as someone who sees Christ:
.. an hungred, and ye gave me no meat:
I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in:
naked, and ye clothed me not: sick,
and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(Matthew 25:42-43 KJV)
You have repeatedly condemned those who practice these good works
You have never said they are critical for entry into the Kingdom of God
You have said you dont do these things becuase they are works-salvation
You have said that you have the HS and you are saved eternally
.You have said you do good works as the HS guides you
Your good works YOU SAID is looking after your mother
Therefore according to Christ you are a goat. Simple.
Originally posted by @rajk999I said I’d return to this so here I am. Hebrews 6:4-6 is a very difficult passage but I don’t believe it’s saying what you think it’s saying.
[i]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open ...[text shortened]... t fall away.
Fall away means going astray = doing evil and sin = not following the commandments
I think it’s saying that Christian Jews (who were Paul’s audience) cannot fall away from the faith (Christianity) and expect to be saved by keeping the law.
Keeping the law was the system under which Jews were saved prior to Christ’s crucifixion and Resurrection and subsequent New Covenant that God made with man where sins were forgiven by believing in Christ and the blood sacrifice He made on the cross.
Even pre-New Covenant, Jews had to sacrifice animals to atone for their sins, which is a clear illustration that no one can keep the law. If human beings could avoid sinning, then Jews would not have been sacrificing animals to atone for their sins.
What I think Paul is saying in those verses from Hebrews is that keeping the law (or trying to) and sacrificing animals to atone for sins no longer works.
And it may well be, though I haven’t looked into it, that apostasy - a Christian who later actively rejects Christ - is what the Bible is referring to when it speaks of the one sin that cannot be forgiven.
Originally posted by @romans1009The passage is very simple and straightforward.
I said I’d return to this so here I am. Hebrews 6:4-6 is a very difficult passage but I don’t believe it’s saying what you think it’s saying.
I think it’s saying that Christian Jews (who were Paul’s audience) cannot fall away from the faith (Christianity) and expect to be saved by keeping the law.
Keeping the law was the system under which Jews wer ...[text shortened]... hrist - is what the Bible is referring to when it speaks of the one sin that cannot be forgiven.
It is only if you want it to say something other that what it is saying it is only then it becomes a difficult passage.
All these passages I pointed out which state clearly:
- that Christian saints can and do sin
- that even those with the HS can and do sin
- that the end result of a life of sin is destruction
- that Jesus will judge these people.
They are very simple statements made by Paul.
Your dilema which makes it a difficult passage is that you are trying to twist them.
Originally posted by @rajk999You said I was among the goats in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats, and, in that parable, the goats are damned.
First I never said anything about going to hell. Heaven and hell is part of your language, not mine.
Jesus defined a goat as someone who sees Christ:
[i] .. an hungred, and ye gave me no meat:
I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in:
naked, and ye clothed me not: sick,
and in prison, and ye visited me no ...[text shortened]... ks YOU SAID is looking after your mother
Therefore according to Christ you are a goat. Simple.
I have never condemned anyone who does good works and it’s ridiculous for you to claim I have. I have said good works are not a requirement of salvation but evidence that someone is saved. Do you really not understand that, or are you misrepresenting what I have said and bearing false witness against me?
Good works are not required for salvation. Yes, I have said that. I have also said that someone who is not doing good works likely did not genuinely accept Christ because upon accepting Christ, one becomes a new creature and God’s Holy Spirit within them begins to change their heart and, consequently, their behavior.
I have never said I don’t do good works. I have said they are not a requirement for salvation but are evidence of someone who is saved. Why do you continue to bear false witness against me?
I do have the Holy Spirit and I am saved eternally because I accepted Christ and believe in Him. See John 3:16 and Romans 10:9.
Yes, I do good works as the Holy Spirit guides me.
I included being the sole caretaker of my elderly mother and financially supporting Christian-based charities as *among* the good works that I do. I saw no reason to provide a comprehensive list or to go into detail about everything required of me to properly care for my mother because it’s frankly nobody’s business but mine, my mother’s and God’s.
You can claim I’m a goat and going to hell all you want but you know nothing about me and it’s just another example of your judgmentalism and chest puffing.
This is one reason good works are not required for salvation - they take one’s mind off Christ and onto self and cause people to condemn others and puff out their chests as they declare themselves righteous by their own hands.
Originally posted by @romans1009No such doctrines exist in the Bible:
<I answered already. Christ will judge all people.>
We agree on that, but not to the extent of determining salvation. The judgments of the saved and damned are separate judgments - people are either saved or damned prior to physical death based on whether they accepted Christ. I know you don’t believe this, but I really have no interest in repeating h ...[text shortened]... n and not a requirement of it and everything else I’ve said and repeated for close to two weeks.
1. The judgments of the saved and damned are separate judgments
2. good works are a manifestation of salvation
You can repeat them for 2 more decades if you like, makes no difference to me
Originally posted by @rajk999I don’t disagree with anything you’ve written and don’t know why you think I do. I have been saying the same thing for close to the two weeks I’ve been on here.
The passage is very simple and straightforward.
It is only if you want it to say something other that what it is saying it is only then it becomes a difficult passage.
All these passages I pointed out which state clearly:
- that Christian saints can and do sin
- that even those with the HS can and do sin
- that the end result of a life of sin is dest ...[text shortened]... by Paul.
Your dilema which makes it a difficult passage is that you are trying to twist them.
Originally posted by @romans1009Jesus took all the worlds nations and divided them into two groups. You claim that only the faithful are the sheep and the unfaithful are the goats.
You said I was among the goats in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats, and, in that parable, the goats are damned.
I have never condemned anyone who does good works and it’s ridiculous for you to claim I have. I have said good works are not a requirement of salvation but evidence that someone is saved. Do you really not understand that, or are you misr ...[text shortened]... ondemn others and puff out their chests as they declare themselves righteous by their own hands.
Jesus said no such thing. Nowhere in that very long description of judgment was the word faith ever used. Not one solitary time. The works of these groups is all that matters.
In both groups there would be those who professed their faith. But it is only those who did good works are welcomed into the Kingdom of God.
Jesus was clear on how he will judge all people
Originally posted by @rajk999The Bible is clear that the judgments of the saved and damned are separate judgments. We already discussed the Judgment Seat of Christ and Great White Throne Judgment. Have you forgotten already?
No such doctrines exist in the Bible:
1. The judgments of the saved and damned are separate judgments
2. good works are a manifestation of salvation
You can repeat them for 2 more decades if you like, makes no difference to me
The Bible is clear that salvation is by faith in Christ and faith in Christ alone. See John 3:16, Romans 10:9, Jesus Christ’s own words in the Gospels and numerous other verses in the Bible. Once someone is saved, the Bible says he or she is “a new creature,” and it is obvious by implication that a changed life for the better and good works would follow.