Originally posted by FMF
Your attempted analogy about "the murderer who stopped murdering people" doesn't work.

sure little buddy, whatever you say.

i see you stopped arguing your case so i see no point in continuing.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
sure little buddy, whatever you say.

i see you stopped arguing your case so i see no point in continuing.

Comparing the perception - having the idea - that homosexuality is a sin that is explicitly condemned in scripture, to murder, is a meaningless rhetorical device, presumably intended to stifle reasonable discussion. RJHinds hasn't murdered anyone, nor has he stopped murdering anyone. Do you have a more appropriate analogy to offer?

Originally posted by FMF
Comparing the perception - having the idea - that homosexuality is a sin that is explicitly condemned in scripture, to murder, is a meaningless rhetorical device, presumably intended to stifle reasonable discussion. RJHinds hasn't murdered anyone, nor has he stopped murdering anyone. Do you have a more appropriate analogy to offer?

rjhinds behaved in a manner unacceptable to civilized society now he behaves in a manner accepted as the norm. as such he doesn't deserve praise for doing what he was meant to do all along. substitute "behaved in a manner unacceptable to civilized society" with anything, including murder or the kicking of puppies. happy now? or do i need to make it any simpler?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
rjhinds behaved in a manner unacceptable to civilized society now he behaves in a manner accepted as the norm.

You bandying around the term "norm" doesn't work, either. The "norm" where I live is a default setting of fear of/contempt for/condemnation/ disgust for/hatred of homosexuals. The same can be said for most ordinary folk in Japan [just a couple of places where I have lived, for example]. I think it's a "norm" among a huge number of Christians. And a huge number of Muslims, most as far as I know. Hundreds and hundreds of millions of people, in other words, many of whom would question your appropriation of the term "civilized society". I have clashed with people like robbie corrobie over his faith-based intolerance towards homosexuals but I have never compared his stance to "murder". Would you? I welcome RJHinds' stance on this issue. Do you really think "every decent average human" would find it "insulting" for me to welcome it?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
incoherent how?

This: "praising someone for not hating is one of the reasons we still have that hate." Incoherent.

And this: "as long as you consider not being racist, bigot, sexist, etc as worthy of hate, you help perpetuate those irrational states of mind." Also incoherent.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
"Someone is getting a little bit of credit for thinking something through and edging away from backwardness and darkness, and towards a more moral and tolerant stance. "
kind of like the murderer who stopped murdering people. i believe he should be given a cookie too. you not seeing the similarity between the two is your problem.


"No I won't stop."
...[text shortened]... back and don't become a normal person all at once or you will hurt yourself" policy

You've heard of the term 'backhanded compliment', haven't you?

Originally posted by FMF
This: "praising someone for not hating is one of the reasons we still have that hate." Incoherent.

And this: "as long as you consider not being racist, bigot, sexist, etc as worthy of hate, you help perpetuate those irrational states of mind." Also incoherent.

you can't just label something incoherent and get away with it. why is it incoherent? what are your arguments?

yes, claiming that what should be a state of normalcy is worthy of praise, you perpetuate the problem. you remind that the hate exists, that some are different and one should notice those differences instead of ignoring them because being gay, being black, being a jew, they are all only important to the individual in question, and shouldn't even register on another's radar.

of course this is not the main reason bigotry exists, a subtlety you failed to acknowledge. it is one of them. as i said.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
You've heard of the term 'backhanded compliment', haven't you?

😉

Originally posted by SwissGambit
You've heard of the term 'backhanded compliment', haven't you?

he seems very sincere in praising rjhinds for something required of every human being. like he deserves applauses for finally doing the right thing.

if he weren't he would have ended the debate on my first reply and this whole tedious back and forth wouldn't have happened.


but since i got you here, state your opinion. maybe i am the only one who doesn't see anything out of the ordinary in rjhinds "not hating the gays".

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
yes, claiming that what should be a state of normalcy is worthy of praise, you perpetuate the problem. you remind that the hate exists, that some are different and one should notice those differences instead of ignoring them because being gay, being black, being a jew, they are all only important to the individual in question, and shouldn't even register on another's radar.

You are being incoherent again. By reminding people that hate exists I "perpetuate the problem"? To praise someone for moving from a stance I disagree with, to a stance I agree with "is insulting"? You have your tongue in cheek I think. No?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
like he deserves applauses for finally doing the right thing.

Yes, sure. It's not as if he was murdering people, and now all he has done is stopped murdering them.

Originally posted by FMF
You bandying around the term "norm" doesn't work, either. The "norm" where I live is a default setting of fear of/contempt for/condemnation/ disgust for/hatred of homosexuals. The same can be said for most ordinary folk in Japan [just a couple of places where I have lived, for example]. I think it's a "norm" among a huge number of Christians. And a huge number o ...[text shortened]... nk "every decent average human" would find it "insulting" for me to welcome it?

and the norm in some pakistani communities (if not all) is to stone to death a daughter who refuses to marry to whom her father dictates. congratulations if you compare yourself to bigots, find yourself slightly better and pat yourself on the back. by that argument, we should all wattch jersey shore, declare we are better than those "humans" (which is not hard) and praise our awesomeness



the norm is not various degrees of bigotry. the norm is not hate. and that being settled, i don't even say to follow the norm but evolve past it, strive for greatness. and then ask for praises. you praise rjhinds for achieving some level of decency in one single aspect (who knows what other bigotry he has skulking around his head)
and that because his son is gay himself. i don't see that as praise worthy and never will

Originally posted by FMF
You are being incoherent again. By reminding people that hate exists I "perpetuate the problem"? To praise someone for moving from a stance I disagree with, to a stance I agree with "is insulting"? You have your tongue in cheek I think. No?

no

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
the norm is not various degrees of bigotry. the norm is not hate.

I don't think this is true at all. My life experience has indicated nothing of the sort. I think you are simply using the word "norm" to refer to your own opinions. "Not hate [homosexuals]" is not a "norm"; it is an ideal; it's a target. If people like RJHinds move towards that ideal, then I welcome it.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
congratulations if you compare yourself to bigots, find yourself slightly better and pat yourself on the back.

This seems incoherent to me.

you praise rjhinds for achieving some level of decency in one single aspect (who knows what other bigotry he has skulking around his head)
and that because his son is gay himself.

What does the "other bigotry he has skulking around his head" have to do with what I praised him for?