Religious colleges getting flak, gay being sin:

Originally posted by FMF
I think that your 'not hating homosexuals is the norm' is a baffling generalization and I do wonder what kind of experience you have had that supports the assertion.

I think that your 'hating homosexuals is the norm' is a baffling generalization and I do wonder what kind of experience you have had that supports the assertion

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
it is illegal in most civilized countries to discriminate against homosexuals.

And "civilized" here means what?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
I think that your 'hating homosexuals is the norm' is a baffling generalization and I do wonder what kind of experience you have had that supports the assertion

Well I have read widely and find that homophobia is widespread and entrenched in vast swathes of society around the world and is enshrined and encouraged by the dominant elements in worlds greatest religions, and institutionalized and/or criminalized in many places.

My own experience of contrasting cultures over a long period of time corroborates this. I have done some work with groups that seek to fight discrimination against homosexuals and I am aware of the cultural and religious taboos and the sometimes overwhelming and seemingly impregnable reactionary norms that they face.

I welcome any developments that replace this "norm" that I have learned about and experienced, with the one you - rather puzzlingly - claim has already been established.

Originally posted by FMF
And "civilized" here means what?

not hating gays for one thing

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
not hating gays for one thing

There is hatred of homosexuals among Christian conservatives in the U.S. and they are numerous, and the prejudice is rooted deeply in the culture, and they have political representation etc. Does the U.S. number among the Zahlanzi list of "civilized countries"?

Originally posted by FMF
[b]A case in point is where prisoners are given job training and employment upon release where other disadvantaged people who have committed no crimes are not provided with the same help (and maybe don't particularly want it but also don't see why the criminals should get it either). I can understand why it is done but I can also understand the resentment felt b ...[text shortened]... ith loss of income, loss of employment etc.? Your analogy doesn't really work for me.

No, I certainly agree with you that RJ should be praised for this particular view. He has come to it through, and despite, the religious and social pressures to conform to the homophobic norms in the society in which he lives.

I also agree that my analogy is over the top, which is why I put the disclaimer on the end. The similarity is simply that both situations are seen by many people as rewarding the undeserving. I disagree with that view but I do understand it.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
not hating gays for one thing

So gays not being hated is the norm in places where gays are not hated? I certainly agree with you there but I think you have a somewhat circular argument.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by FMF
There is hatred of homosexuals among Christian conservatives in the U.S. and they are numerous, and the prejudice is rooted deeply in the culture, and they have political representation etc. Does the U.S. number among the Zahlanzi list of "civilized countries"?

yet all the christian conservatives in the us and in the US congress couldn't stop the passing of laws stating a gay may not be beaten because of his choice in fuk buddies, couldn't be denied job opportunities. and if a christian fundie were to venture to hurt or even kill a homosexual, he wouldn't be praised, he would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, perhaps even harsher if it is proved it was a hate crime.



why do you assume a number of cattle makes the US uncivilized? why do you assume the us is characterized by the fundies? the us is run by the fundies because it has been a trend in most countries that educated men and women couldn't be bothered to care to vote and as such the votes were cast by the rabble.

Originally posted by Penguin
So gays not being hated is the norm in places where gays are not hated? I certainly agree with you there but I think you have a somewhat circular argument.

--- Penguin.

😀

no, not hating any category of people is the norm for a civilized society. if it fails this check, it is not civilized. tolerance is more important than running water.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
why do you assume a number of cattle makes the US uncivilized?

It's not me who has been using the words "civilized" and "uncivilized". It's you.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi

yet all the christian conservatives in the us and in the US congress couldn't stop the passing of laws stating a gay may not be beaten because of his choice in fuk buddies, couldn't be denied job opportunities.

I welcome anti-discrimination laws. They are a good way of trying to confront and eventually dismantle "norms" that are rooted in prejudice.

and if a christian fundie were to venture to hurt or even kill a homosexual, he wouldn't be praised, he would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, perhaps even harsher if it is proved it was a hate crime.

I wouldn't praise a Christian fundamentalist for killing a homosexual. I would support them being prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

[I don't, however, agree with "harsher" punishments for "hate crimes", but that's a different topic for a different thread.]

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
why do you assume the us is characterized by the fundies? the us is run by the fundies because it has been a trend in most countries that educated men and women couldn't be bothered to care to vote and as such the votes were cast by the rabble.

If this is an attempt to shed light on what the "norm" is in the U.S., and whether or not it is is an example of a "civilized country" according to you, then it is incoherent.

Originally posted by FMF
If this is an attempt to shed light on what the "norm" is in the U.S., and whether or not it is is an example of a "civilized country" according to you, then it is incoherent.

is anyone fooled by this? this is the same manner of debating as rjhinds, dasa or the other fundies employ. you don't argue, you dictate your opinion. you branded me with this verdict with absolutely no proof.

i think i wasted my time in this thread.

Originally posted by FMF
If this is an attempt to shed light on what the "norm" is in the U.S., and whether or not it is is an example of a "civilized country" according to you, then it is incoherent.

This brings up the issue of whether you can summarise an entire country the size of the US in this way. The US as a whole may be generally civilised but there are states the size of countries that are generally not (by the measure of tolerance towards gays).

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
you don't argue, you dictate your opinion.

You don't have to praise RJHinds if you don't want to. I don't really see what it is you think I am "dictating".