Religious colleges getting flak, gay being sin:

Originally posted by FMF
Your attempted analogy about "the murderer who stopped murdering people" doesn't work.

I think you are both talking sense:

It does not seem fair to all the 'normal' people who are just 'being good' to praise the guy who 'stops being bad'.

On the other hand, such behaviour is unusual for the person whose behaviour has changed and I believe it has been shown that praising improvement encourages more improvement, especially in children.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by FMF
I don't think this is true at all. My life experience has indicated nothing of the sort. I think you are simply using the word "norm" to refer to your own opinions. "Not hate [homosexuals]" is not a "norm"; it is an ideal; it's a target. If people like RJHinds move towards that ideal, then I welcome it.

yes, we should all use personal experience when arguing, it totally makes sense.



"Not hate [homosexuals]" is not a "norm"; it is an ideal; it's a target.

i feel sorry for the sorry as$ society you live in. in all civilized societies, that is not an ideal. that is the norm. which is further supported by the fact that even gay haters abstain of voicing their views for fear of being outcasted.

Originally posted by Penguin
It does not seem fair to all the 'normal' people who are just 'being good' to praise the guy who 'stops being bad'..

I reckon myself to be a fairly 'normal' person and I do not want any praise for "just being good". None whatsoever. Do you want praise? Judging by how self-righteous Zahlanzi is being, perhaps he does want some. In fact I get the distinct feeling that what he is in fact doing here is beating his chest about his own anti-homophobia stance. Smacks of vanity to me.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
i feel sorry for the sorry as$ society you live in. in all civilized societies, that is not an ideal. that is the norm. which is further supported by the fact that even gay haters abstain of voicing their views for fear of being outcasted.

I have lived in several different places around the world. Are you then determined to commandeer the terms "all civilized societies" and "norm" and use them in a way that coincides completely with your own opinions? I just don't subscribe to your perspective. Nothing in my experience of a range of societies and cultures has indicated that "not hate [homosexuals]" is a "norm" in the way you seem to think it is. I think every little step towards making it the "norm" is to be welcomed; praised, even.

Originally posted by Penguin
I think you are both talking sense:

It does not seem fair to all the 'normal' people who are just 'being good' to praise the guy who 'stops being bad'.

On the other hand, such behaviour is unusual for the person whose behaviour has changed and I believe it has been shown that praising improvement encourages more improvement, especially in children.

--- Penguin.

and i would agree, if the person we would be talking about were in fact a child. i am not such a spartan as i come off to be. you cannot apply the rules of an adult to a child.

however rjhinds is in his 60's, i think? a person who seems to believe all who think evolution is a scientific fact are deserving some punishment? a person who still believes all the horrors supposedly committed in the bible were divine will and therefore righteous. setting all those things apart, he comes to the conclusion he doesn't hate gays because he loves his gay son. does he deserve praise? at most a simple handshake and a "congrats on becoming normal in this single aspect now lets talk about you thinking non-christians deserve an eternity of agony".

Originally posted by FMF
I reckon myself to be a fairly 'normal' person and I do not want any praise for "just being good". None whatsoever. Do you want praise? Judging by how self-righteous Zahlanzi is being, perhaps he does want some. In fact I get the distinct feeling that what he is in fact doing here is beating his chest about his own anti-homophobia stance. Smacks of vanity to me.

No, I don't. But a significant proportion of people are offended when they see what they think of as "bad people getting rewarded".

A case in point is where prisoners are given job training and employment upon release where other disadvantaged people who have committed no crimes are not provided with the same help (and maybe don't particularly want it but also don't see why the criminals should get it either). I can understand why it is done but I can also understand the resentment felt by those others. I know this is not the same situation but similar emotions and reasoning are involved.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
yes, we should all use personal experience when arguing, it totally makes sense.



"Not hate [homosexuals]" is not a "norm"; it is an ideal; it's a target.

i feel sorry for the sorry as$ society you live in. in all civilized societies, that is not an ideal. that is the norm. which is further supported by the fact that even gay haters abstain of voicing their views for fear of being outcasted.

It is the norm in many (most?) religious societies. In the UK it was the norm not that long ago. In many parts of America it still is the norm.

--- Penguin

Originally posted by Penguin
No, I don't. But a significant proportion of people are offended when they see what they think of as "bad people getting rewarded".

I disagree. I think most people who abhor prejudice against homosexuals would welcome people moving towards their stance and not feel "offended" at all by some reduction or rejection of that prejudice, however small, being acknowledged or even praised.

Originally posted by FMF
I have lived in several different places around the world. Are you then determined to commandeer the terms "all civilized societies" and "norm" and use them in a way that coincides completely with your own opinions? I just don't subscribe to your perspective. Nothing in my experience of a range of societies and cultures has indicated that "not hate [homosexuals ...[text shortened]... hink every little step towards making it the "norm" is to be welcomed; praised, even.

I have lived in several different places around the world. Are you then determined to commandeer the terms "all civilized societies" and "norm" and use them in a way that coincides completely with your own opinions?


you keep using "I have done this and that". since when is that a valid argument? who cares where you have lived? hasty generalization is fun, but illogical. think for a second what happens to gay bashers in civilized societies. think for a second what would happen if you were to spout gay hating propaganda on this site. gay bashers are punished, marginalized. it is illegal in most civilized countries to discriminate against homosexuals. that means it is the norm. that is what society has come to, that we immediately gang up on and dismiss and ridicule someone spouting hate, not just about gays, but any category of people. anything less, and we are not talking civilized.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
I have lived in several different places around the world. Are you then determined to commandeer the terms "all civilized societies" and "norm" and use them in a way that coincides completely with your own opinions?


you keep using "I have done this and that". since when is that a valid argument? who cares where you have lived? hasty generalization is ...[text shortened]... t about gays, but any category of people. anything less, and we are not talking civilized.

are you saying that all people who reach the standard of 'normality' shouldnt be praised for doing so?

Originally posted by Penguin
It [b]is the norm in many (most?) religious societies. In the UK it was the norm not that long ago. In many parts of America it still is the norm.

--- Penguin[/b]

i am not talking about localized regions and small communities. the "norm" with hobos in new york is that the stink of piss. the norm with fred phelps and his Westboro Baptist church is that they are scum. we do not generalize to the whole united states civilization.

i was also talking about "civilized" societies. i submit the idea that Westboro Baptist church is not a civilized society.

Originally posted by Penguin

A case in point is where prisoners are given job training and employment upon release where other disadvantaged people who have committed no crimes are not provided with the same help (and maybe don't particularly want it but also don't see why the criminals should get it either). I can understand why it is done but I can also understand the resentment felt by those others. I know this is not the same situation but similar emotions and reasoning are involved..

I think your analogy is pumped full of steroids!. What I said to RJHinds was "It is a credit to you that the hateful things you often say in this chat room do not usually extend to homosexuals, possibly on account of the fact that you have a homosexual son." And now here you are talking about people who have committed crimes, people serving time in prison, people losing their livelihoods or not getting jobs, law abiding people not receiving "help".

Do you really think that people who want to see homophobia become the "norm" will feel "resentment" every time that homophobia seems to be getting dismantled? Do you really think my comment to RJHinds represents a form of preferential treatment that can be equated with loss of income, loss of employment etc.? Your analogy doesn't really work for me.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
are you saying that all people who reach the standard of 'normality' shouldnt be praised for doing so?

yes. unless, like penguin said, they are children.


having a job, paying taxes, not breaking laws are things every human does and needs to do. if you have children, you raise them well, another thing you are supposed to do.


now, if you have 3 jobs because the economy sucks and you want your kid to have better than average clothes, good food and education opportunities, then you deserve praise. you could have had 1 job, clothed your kid , fed him the minimum and you wouldn't have gone to jail for neglecting him. those that do that don't deserve praise.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
you keep using "I have done this and that". since when is that a valid argument? who cares where you have lived? hasty generalization is fun, but illogical.

I think that your 'not hating homosexuals is the norm' is a baffling generalization and I do wonder what kind of experience you have had that supports the assertion.

Originally posted by Penguin
No, I don't. But a significant proportion of people are offended when they see what they think of as "bad people getting rewarded".

A case in point is where prisoners are given job training and employment upon release where other disadvantaged people who have committed no crimes are not provided with the same help (and maybe don't particularly want it but ...[text shortened]... is not the same situation but similar emotions and reasoning are involved.

--- Penguin.

it is not the same situation, sorry.

the inmates are given employment in an effort to reintegrate them in society because most people would be unwilling to give them a chance. it is considered they have payed their debt to society and need not be punished further. this is not praise it is a measure to ensure some level of fairness, and to prevent former criminals to turn back to a life of crime because they are denied all forms of legal work.