Originally posted by ColettiColetti: Since nothing within us saves us, and nothing we do really saves us, then our salvation is not a process that occures over our life time. We are not saved by works.
The normal protestant view is that we are saved by believing in Christ, and that at the time we believe, it is by the recieving of the Holy Spirit. (I think we recieve the HS and consequatly believe, others will say we recieve the HS after we believe). At that moment we have been "saved." And we ask for and receive the forgivness of our sins. (The order ...[text shortened]... en our salvation is not a process that occures over our life time. We are not saved by works.
Really; then please explain the meaning of James 2:13-24.
Originally posted by no1marauderYou should go back a little further for some clues. James 2:10 is very interesting, but James 2:1 is the beginning of Jame's argument. And Mat 7:21 and Luk 6:46 are also keys to understanding James. And you stopped too soon, because James summarizes with James 2:26.
Coletti: Since nothing within us saves us, and nothing we do really saves us, then our salvation is not a process that occures over our life time. We are not saved by works.
Really; then please explain the meaning of James 2:13-24.
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
(Jam 2:26 NASB)
Originally posted by Coletti
You should go back a little further for some clues. James 2:10 is very interesting, but James 2:1 is the beginning of Jame's argument. And Mat 7:21 and Luk 6:46 are also keys to understanding James. And you stopped too soon, because James summarizes with James 2:26.[b]For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
(Jam 2:26 NASB)
[/b]since there can be works without faith but not faith without works, which is the greater of the two?
Doesn't Mathew 25 explain it succinctly? Re-read it after you read Mathew 13 , until you understand.
Originally posted by frogstompWho said there can be good works without faith?
since there can be works without faith but not faith without works, which is the greater of the two?
Doesn't Mathew 25 explain it succinctly? Re-read it after you read Mathew 13 , until you understand.
Mat 13 covers a lot. Which part don't you understand?
Mat 25 talks about the second coming and judgment day. It shows how Jesus gathers the believers to him (the sheep) on his right side (which shows he favored them). Then those who go the his left side will be found guilty (the goats). Notice that the sheep are sheep BEFORE the the judgment is made, and the goats are ALL found guilty, but none of the sheep are found guilty.
The sheep are the believers, those of faith. And they all did good works (because good works follow necessarily from saving faith). And that not only were they blessed for their works, but they were giving even more credit then they deserved.
Now the goats think they did good work too. But they did not get any credit for their "good deeds". For even if they neglected the law in the smallest way (see James 2:10) they are guilty of all the law.
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
(Mat 7:21-23 NASB)
So talking like you have faith is meaningless if you do not see the fruit of that faith (good works). But the faith precedes the works and the works are meaningless without the faith.
Originally posted by ColettiThere is absolutely nothing in Matthew 25 about faith; you clowns deliberately misinterpret it. If you can't read the plain language, you're hopeless. It is absolutely clear in Matthew 25 you will be judged on how you acted toward your fellow man AND NOTHING ELSE. You can argue other parts of Scripture contradict it (which I don't believe if it is properly understood) but the interpretation you gave is dead wrong according to the words used by Jesus.
Who said there can be good works without faith?
Mat 13 covers a lot. Which part don't you understand?
Mat 25 talks about the second coming and judgment day. It shows how Jesus gathers the believers to him (the sheep) on his right side (which shows he favored them). Then those who go the his left side will be found guilty (the goats). Notice that t ...[text shortened]... ood works). But the faith precedes the works and the works are meaningless without the faith.
James is absolutely clear, too. Faith is nothing without works contrary to your prior post. You people certainly edit out the parts you don't like in Scripture or simply deceive yourselves to "make it fit" into your twisted world view. I don't think any of the fundies or you Calvinists can properly be called Christians as you ignore the most basic teachings of Jesus i.e. what MUST be done to ensure salvation on Judgment Day.
It's been cited here before, but here is Matthew 25:31-46. Try to find where it says non-believers will be condemned even if they do acts of mercy and kindness towards their fellow man (Hint: it ain't there):
31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?
38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.
46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
Also find where it says anything about faith (HINT: it don't).
Originally posted by Colettiwho said ? a work is a work is a work.
Who said there can be good works without faith?
Mat 13 covers a lot. Which part don't you understand?
Mat 25 talks about the second coming and judgment day. It shows how Jesus gathers the believers to him (the sheep) on his right side (which shows he favored them). Then those who go the his left side will be found guilty (the goats). Notice that t ...[text shortened]... ood works). But the faith precedes the works and the works are meaningless without the faith.
feed the hungry is a work
Christs says its a good work , got it now?
It's you that needs to understand 13, since you show such a lack of understanding of 25.
Jeez Coletti ,, read it again.. im not im the business of giving my interpretation of what somebody that spoke so plainly meant.
read the two until you understand, you clearly don't have it knocked down yet.
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Originally posted by ColettiSince you're attempting to gloss over everything in James that refutes your "faith only" belief system, here's James 2: 14-26:
You should go back a little further for some clues. James 2:10 is very interesting, but James 2:1 is the beginning of Jame's argument. And Mat 7:21 and Luk 6:46 are also keys to understanding James. And you stopped too soon, because Jam ...[text shortened]... without works is dead. [/i]
(Jam 2:26 NASB)
[/quote]
[/b]
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.
19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect;
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
25 And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.
Again explain lines 14, 20 and 24 if faith is enough as you, RBHILL and the other fundie cultists claim.
EDIT: Here's a Bible Study for ya: compare and contrast the Book of James above with the Book of Coletti, to wit:
Since nothing within us saves us, and nothing we do really saves us, then our salvation is not a process that occures over our life time. We are not saved by works.
Originally posted by ColettiStill you don't get it :
Who said there can be good works without faith?
Mat 13 covers a lot. Which part don't you understand?
Mat 25 talks about the second coming and judgment day. It shows how Jesus gathers the believers to him (the sheep) on his right side (which shows he favored them). Then those who go the his left side will be found guilty (the goats). Notice that t ...[text shortened]... ood works). But the faith precedes the works and the works are meaningless without the faith.
the Mathew 7: 21-23 quote is refering to Mark 16: 15-17
Mathew 13 and 25 should be read together since the latter is what the former is refering to.
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Originally posted by NemesioLet'sgo back to the real beginning:
According the NT, one who believes in Jesus is saved, yes.
But what is entailed in believing in Jesus? It's not just a confession
with your lips. That is insufficient to demonstrate your 'faith' and
will not merit the gift of gra ...[text shortened]... As such, you cannot possibly know that you
are saved.
Nemesio
But he answered and said.It is written that man should not live by bread alone, but by every word that preseedeth out of the mouth of God. MATTHEW 4:4
Do you believe that to be true? Are you living by every word of THE WORD OF GOD? Are you living by every word that JESUS CHRIST has spoken?
Originally posted by no1marauderALL of you that feel that I donot know or understand THE WORD OF GOD, need to go back and read all the Words that CHRIST spoke. Ask yourself the same questions that you ask Believers. Are YOU following all the Words of CHRIST? Are you living a life that is Pleasing to GOD? On that Great day of Judgement where are you going, to Heaven or Hell? If what THE WORD OF GOD says is true, and you have not accepted the Salvation of CHRIST, how are you going to get to Heaven? Or better yet what are you doing to please GOD?
Nothing's free, Junior; you don't get to merely go around clucking "I'm going to Heaven" like a Pharisee, you have to do acts of mercy and love to aid your fellow man. Read Matthew 25:31-46. I don't think you're gonna make it; too much self-pride and arrogance. Tough titty for you, pal.
Originally posted by blindfaith101I really think it pleases God when I pray you would shut up. If you REALLY ARE trying to help people... you might try another angle.
ALL of you that feel that I donot know or understand THE WORD OF GOD, need to go back and read all the Words that CHRIST spoke. Ask yourself the same questions that you ask Believers. Are YOU following all the Words of CHRIST? Are you living a life that is Pleasing to GOD? On that Great day of Judgement where are you going, to Heaven or Hell? If what T ...[text shortened]... n of CHRIST, how are you going to get to Heaven? Or better yet what are you doing to please GOD?
ES
Originally posted by frogstompYES, I haved claimed CHRIST. Have you? YES, i know that I have to follow every teaching that HE taught, are you? You claim that I am talking the talk without walking the walk, ARE YOU? YES I know that I am on the road to Salvation, ARE YOU?
Screaming "I'M SAVED!!!!!!!" from the rooftops will be replaced by
screaming " IT'S HOT!!!!!!!" if you don't wise up and stop
talking the talk without walking the walk.
You have invoked Christ as your path to salvation, it's up to you if you will follow him on it.
You have been warned!
How do you expect to get to Heaven? Are YOU seeking the Kingdom Of Heaven with the way you Live?
Originally posted by no1marauderThen if you follow the truth of MATTHEW 25. Are you living the complete word that HE spoke from MATTHEW to JOHN?
BF: Yes I have read MATTHEW Chapter 25, and I know that I am bound by my faith to follow every word.
Then why do you deny the truth of Jesus' words in Matthew 25:31-46 which clearly state that on Judgment Day ALL will be judged on how they treated their fellow men? You are not speaking the truth to claim otherwise. Either Jesus is wr ...[text shortened]... BHILL, acting like a Pharisee by shouting you are "Saved" in everyone's face: see Luke 11:43.