17 May 05
Originally posted by NemesioWhat does "being saved" mean to you?
Actually, it does. It says that you have an obligation to serve the poor.
That obligation is never over (otherwise you would be saved by works, which
is certainly not Biblical). That obligation is continuous; if you fail in that
obligation, you are demonstrating that you have failed to be saved. Only
upon your death is that obligation relieved, an ...[text shortened]... 't
feeding the poor.
So, I ask you: have you worked in a soup kitchen this week?
Nemesio
19 May 05
Originally posted by ColettiIt is a meaningless term because we have no way of verifying one's salvation status.
What does "being saved" mean to you?
I do not focus on what I 'might' be, I focus on what I am, can be, and should be doing.
When I hear the resident Christians assert that they are saved, as if there were a discrete
moment in time where they became saved, before which they weren't and after which they
necessarily will be for all time, they malign the very teachings of Jesus, explicit in every
regard that being a True Follower entails a continuous process which is only fulfilled upon
one's death.
Nemesio
19 May 05
Originally posted by NemesioGod is not a God of keeping secrets, he lets his people know that they have eternal life and that is in Jesus Christ.
It is a meaningless term because we have no way of verifying one's salvation status.
I do not focus on what I 'might' be, I focus on what I am, can be, and should be doing.
When I hear the resident Christians assert that they are saved, as if there were a discrete
moment in time where they became saved, before which they weren't and after which they ...[text shortened]... ue Follower entails a continuous process which is only fulfilled upon
one's death.
Nemesio
19 May 05
Originally posted by RBHILLThen why do Christians speak of the 'Mystery of the Trinity?'
God is not a God of keeping secrets, he lets his people know that they have eternal life and that is in Jesus Christ.
Why do we not know the day nor the hour of the Second Coming?
Why does He not reveal Himself at every moment so that you can
shut the atheists here once and for all?
God is indeed a God of mystery and secrets. Your assertion is easily
refuted.
You don't know for a certainty that you are saved or even that you are
right. That is what 'faith' means. It doesn't matter how tightly you
clutch your security blanket.
Nemesio
19 May 05
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioThe Bible says whosoever calls apon the name of the Lord will be saved.
Then why do Christians speak of the 'Mystery of the Trinity?'
Why do we not know the day nor the hour of the Second Coming?
Why does He not reveal Himself at every moment so that you can
shut the atheists here once and for all?
...[text shortened]... t matter how tightly you
clutch your security blanket.
Nemesio
And it also says that we can know that we have eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
And that he(Jesus) is the only way to heaven.
19 May 05
Originally posted by RBHILL
The Bible says whosoever calls apon the name of the Lord will be saved.
I just called upon Him. I guess I am saved now. You can stop
worrying.
Do I have to feed the hungry as per St Matthew 25, or am I absolved
of all action, RBHILL?
When was the last time you fed the poor, RBHILL?
Nemesio
20 May 05
Originally posted by NemesioThe normal protestant view is that we are saved by believing in Christ, and that at the time we believe, it is by the recieving of the Holy Spirit. (I think we recieve the HS and consequatly believe, others will say we recieve the HS after we believe). At that moment we have been "saved." And we ask for and receive the forgivness of our sins. (The order is not so important for this as the understanding that these things all happen together.) We have been at this time justified by the Christ. This is what it means to be saved. We know that we are still sinners, but we also know that we have been forgiven our sins. All this is by faith alone, and not because of our good works.
It is a meaningless term because we have no way of verifying one's salvation status.
I do not focus on what I 'might' be, I focus on what I am, can be, and should be doing.
When I hear the resident Christians assert that they are saved, as if there were a discrete
moment in time where they became saved, before which they weren't and after which they ...[text shortened]... ue Follower entails a continuous process which is only fulfilled upon
one's death.
Nemesio
It is also possible to see being saved as what will happen to us on the judgement day. At that time, the believers will be declared righteous before God. And Christ saves us from death and the wrath of God. We are saved by our faith alone in Christ alone.
Both these things are events. The recieving of the Holy Spirit (spiritual baptism), and the judgement day where we will be declaired righteous before God.
I think you are right in that we do not always know who will be saved (or is saved). Sometimes we may even be unsure about our own salvation. The assurance we have is in the death of Christ on the cross for all of our sins, once and for all time.
The process you seem to be taking about is what I would call sanctification. That occures over the lifetime of the believer. As a sign of our faith, we grow in spiritual maturity, in good works, in becoming better people to serve our neighboors. But this is not what justifies us. We are not saved by our works in any sense. We saved by faith in Christ.
Since nothing within us saves us, and nothing we do really saves us, then our salvation is not a process that occures over our life time. We are not saved by works.
20 May 05
Originally posted by NemesioYou do not need to feed the poor to be saved. You feed the poor because you are saved. What I am saying is that is you are saved, you will see good works resulting from being saved. The saving precedes the good works. So that the works themselves are not saving you, they are evidence (not proof) that you are saved.
Originally posted by RBHILL
[b]The Bible says whosoever calls apon the name of the Lord will be saved.
I just called upon Him. I guess I am saved now. You can stop
worrying.
Do I have to feed the hungry as per St Matthew 25, or am I absolved
of all action, RBHILL?
When was the last time you fed the poor, RBHILL?
Nemesio[/b]
By saved I mean you have believed in Christ and been baptized by receiving the Holy Spirit.
Consequently, if you find you have no good works, you have not been saved - you have not been received the Holy Spirit. One truth is you are saved by faith. Another is saving faith will be followed by good works. The works do not save, but the absence of works means you are not saved.
20 May 05
Originally posted by ColettiCorrect, the presence of good works are not proof that one is saved according to Orthodox
You do not need to feed the poor to be saved. You feed the poor because you are saved. What I am saying is that is you are saved, you will see good works resulting from being saved. The saving precedes the good works. So that the works themselves are not saving you, they are evidence (not proof) that you are saved.
Christian thinking.
However the absence of them is proof that you are not.
RBHILL would like to think that 'spreading the Gospel' is sufficient representation of
his good works, but the Bible explicitly lists the good works which are representative of a
faithful sheep (rather than a hypocritical goat). They are:
Feed the hungry;
Give drink to the thirsty;
Clothe the naked;
Visit the imprisoned;
Comfort the sick.
He has NEVER testified to the importance of these necessary actions. Yes,
they are necessary; a good Christian needs to do them within his/her capacity
to do so.
If you cannot be saved without these traits (as St Matthew 25 makes abundantly clear), then
you need to have done them. That is not to say that the works themselves have salvific efficacy,
but that they are evidence of one's salvation status.
Nemesio
20 May 05
Originally posted by NemesioJesus Murphy. Do you honestly believe that a Christian must perform all of these tasks to the best of their abilities or they are not Christians at all?
Correct, the presence of good works are not proof that one is saved according to Orthodox
Christian thinking.
[b]However the absence of them is proof that you are not.
RBHILL would like to think that 'spreading the Gospel' is sufficient representation of
his good works, but the Bible explicitly lists the good works which are representati ...[text shortened]... elves have salvific efficacy,
but that they are evidence of one's salvation status.
Nemesio[/b]
If this is the case then Heaven must be a ghost town.
20 May 05
1 edit
Originally posted by ColettiMark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
What does "being saved" mean to you?
16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned.
16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall
not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
recover.
Think that over and asked yourself, " Who do I know that's 'saved'? "
all creatures? bbarr was right !!!!!!!!!!!! the bible says so!