Mathew
10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall
receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in
the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones
a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto
you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world,and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Originally posted by RBHILLOkay, so you are talking about any people who do good works in order to be saved, but don't have faith? But if they believe that there's a god who can save them, doesn't that imply they have faith? Or are you trying to say something entirely different, which I just can't understand because you are speaking in paradoxes which only believers can understand?
He man I was just giving an example smart one, it could be any one atheist or not.
Originally posted by no1marauderI know I am wasting my time with you but I'll give you one last shot. If you can resist the insults, I might continue discussing this with you.
I guess you are toooooooooo brainwashed to read;...You could even then ditch the ridiculous predestination thing and you might be on the way to some sort of rational Christianity! Give it a whirl!
I wrote earlier: "The sheep are credited, not just with feeding the poor, but with feeding Christ himself. And the goats are not cursed for failing to feel the poor, but neglecting Christ himself. "
and you said:
the sheep and the goats are judged ONLY on how they treat their fellow men. Christ DOES not make a seperate distinction for those who "fed" him; the only way you "feed" Christ is by what you do to others. The only way in this passage you "neglect" Christ is by neglecting others. The parallel passages of verse 40 and 45 make that clear.
Now you say they are judged by how they treated their fellow man. But Christ is does not say that. Christ says they are blessed for how they treated Christ.
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
(Mat 25:35-36 ESV)
But they did not really care for Christ, and that is clear by verse 40.
And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
(Mat 25:40 ESV)
So Christ is blessing them with more than they did, he is giving them more credit then they merited. For Christ was not there in every case, he says so in verse 40. He says that they were caring for "the least of these".
And the reverse is true for the goats.
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
(Mat 25:41-43 ESV)
Now look back at verse 34. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. This tiny verse seems to be the judgement being carried out. Not the punishment, but the judgement. Sheep to the right, and goats to the left. Christ doesn't ask any questions, he doesn't need to. He already knows who are the sheep and who are the goats. But also notice that there is no in-between ruling. It's black and white. He tells them after for the sheep: "you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." and for the goats: "you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels"
The contrast is great. There is nothing made available for those who's good deeds out-weigh their bad deeds. You are either going to be a goat or a sheep.
But of course there is much more to this than meets the eye. For only the "wolves" seem to think scripture is to be taken literally. The fundies know that sheep and goats are not judged, people are. But it would also appear the that goats are getting a hard time, and the sheep are getting better than they deserve.
So again I ask the question: why the contrast? If you can address the question without insulting me or my fellow "fundies" I might reply.
Originally posted by NordlysIt takes more than the belief a god, it take belief in the God of the Bible, and in Jesus as his Son. Everyone has faith, but not everyone has faith that can save them, faith in Christ as the only means of salvation.
Okay, so you are talking about any people who do good works in order to be saved, but don't have faith? But if they believe that there's a god who can save them, doesn't that imply they have faith? Or are you trying to say something entirely different, which I just can't understand because you are speaking in paradoxes which only believers can understand?
Originally posted by ColettiIn the posting by RBHILL I was originally replying to, he wrote "thinking that God will save you". By writing "God", not "a god", I believe he is referring to the Christian god. And faith in the Christian god would imply faith in Christ, wouldn't it?
It takes more than the belief a god, it take belief in the God of the Bible, and in Jesus as his Son. Everyone has faith, but not everyone has faith that can save them, faith in Christ as the only means of salvation.
When you say "Everyone has faith", what exactly do you mean by "faith"? If you include all meanings of the word, you may be right, but if you are talking about faith as "religious belief", there are many people who don't have faith (myself included).
Originally posted by NordlysBy faith, I mean in the broader sense, that everyone believes in something at some time - believing some things without strong evidence or clear deductive proofs.
In the posting by RBHILL I was originally replying to, he wrote "thinking that God will save you". By writing "God", not "a god", I believe he is referring to the Christian god. And faith in the Christian god would imply faith in Christ, wouldn't it?
When you say "Everyone has faith", what exactly do you mean by "faith"? If you include all mean ...[text shortened]... ut faith as "religious belief", there are many people who don't have faith (myself included).
Critics of faith will demand that it means to believe something with no evidence or contrary evidence - but this is an unnecessary restriction to the term. Very few people believe things contrary to all evidence. Usually, it is believed because they also believe that the evidence supports it but not enough to prove it.
Many people are including Christ when they say they believe in the God of the Bible, but some will not. Some people believe in a God but not in Christ. Jews believe in the God of the OT. Other's in Mohammad or Buddha or Science. But none of these are what I would call "saving" faith".
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Originally posted by ColettiOkay, I see what you mean (I think), even though I don't agree. Just curious - what about those who have never heard about the Christian god? Or people who got wrong or insufficient information? Another question - what is the difference between faith and belief, in your opinion?
By faith, I mean in the broader sense, that everyone believes in something at some time - believing some things without strong evidence or clear deductive proofs.
Critics of faith will demand that it means to believe something with no e ...[text shortened]... . But none of these are what I would call "saving" faith".
Originally posted by NordlysI don't think there is much hope for those who have not heard, or have heard a corrupted gospel. But that is not strictly the case. I think God can save infants who die before they are old enough to understand. And I think the mentally handicap can be given faith by God.
Okay, I see what you mean (I think), even though I don't agree. Just curious - what about those who have never heard about the Christian god? Or people who got wrong or insufficient information? Another question - what is the difference between faith and belief, in your opinion?
As for the difference between faith and belief, I think the are the same thing. Faith is usually connected to religious belief. But in function they are the same. In Scripture they are synonyms. Both mean a mental assent to the truth of particular propositions. So faith in Christ means you believe that what the Bible says about Christ is true.
Originally posted by ColettiNo, I think there is a difference. If I may, let me use an example from DoctorScribbles, who asked which of these do not fit : Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, God, and The chair you are sitting in? I believe that the correct answer is the chair. However, inspite of my belief that the chair is the correct answer, I have faith in God.
I don't think there is much hope for those who have not heard, or have heard a corrupted gospel. But that is not strictly the case. I think God can save infants who die before they are old enough to understand. And I think the mentally handicap can be given faith by God.
As for the difference between faith and belief, I think the are the same thing. ...[text shortened]... positions. So faith in Christ means you believe that what the Bible says about Christ is true.
Or to put it another way. I believe that the mailman just delivered the mail as I saw him do it. I have faith that my tax refund will be here soon.
Originally posted by ColettiThat's ridiculous; verse 40 is a direct answer to the question of those saved, to wit:
I know I am wasting my time with you but I'll give you one last shot. If you can resist the insults, I might continue discussing this with you.
I wrote earlier: "The sheep are credited, not just with feeding the poor, but with feeding Christ himself. And the goats are not cursed for failing to feel the poor, but neglecting Christ himself. "
and y ...[text shortened]... st? If you can address the question without insulting me or my fellow "fundies" I might reply.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?
38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.
They are NOT getting more "credit" than they deserve; they are getting exactly what they "deserve" for following Christ's message throughout the Gospels. The passage is clear; read the whole thing without skipping those parts that don't fit in with your preconceived (predestined?) notions.
All nations are divided into the "sheeps and goats" by what they DID in life; then Jesus on Judgment Day explains why the judgment is given. Nothing about faith but only your deeds. Your misreading is grotesque. The "contrast" is in that some treated their fellow men in accordanve to the consistent message of the Gospels and some didn't. NO, they're no middle ground, nor could there be on Judgment Day. The passage is clear; your thinking is muddled.
And I'd like a serious discussion of James 2 not a partial reading ignoring most of it. And you could asddress frogstomp's cite in Matthew that men will be judged by their works. Try again, Coletti; the Gospels just don't support you, no matter how much of them you try to skip over.
Originally posted by ColettiI think you are mistaken, Coletti.
I know I am wasting my time with you but I'll give you one last shot. If you can resist the insults, I might continue discussing this with you.
I wrote earlier: "The sheep are credited, not just with feeding the poor, but with feeding Christ himself. And the goats are not cursed for failing to feel the poor, but neglecting Christ himself. "
and y ...[text shortened]... st? If you can address the question without insulting me or my fellow "fundies" I might reply.
What St Matthew 25 makes explicitly clear is that a good Christian will see the face
of Christ in the least of his/her metaphorical brethren. Jesus is never physically attended
to (as both the sheep and goats protest having never seen Him); it is by attending to
the needs of the poor that one attends to the metaphorical Body of Christ, which is His
Church (the World).
The Good Samariten makes clear that a person of faith has a duty to all people
in need, that one should see all people as a neighbor. This notion is reinforced by the
command to love your enemies.
I think that your interpretation -- that Christians need to feed an actual Christ -- is
misguided. The sheep didn't even know that they were feeding Him through their deeds,
and the goats didn't even know that they were neglecting Him through their inaction.
This does not mean a 'works-based' mode of salvation; it only means that all Christians
have a duty to attend to those in need lest they be categorized as a goat.
Working doesn't save, but not working damns.
Nemesio