Originally posted by twhitehead Longer hair can happen due to a single base pair change in DNA. The question being posed to you is whether or not you believe that it is possible for a life form, without direct interference from God, can, during its reproduction, make an error in copying DNA such that a single base pair gets changed.
The second question is whether you believe the above ...[text shortened]... ne by design?
Kelly No. Nobody is asking you to believe in a mutation. Its not a religion.[/b]
I believe in random mutations, I do not believe you can introduce massive random
changes over time to build new systems within a life form. I also beg to differ on
religion, there are more than a few people here to defend evolution with more
passion than believers in God do. They use it to define their lives and build into it
meaning and everything else. You don't need a god to have a religion!
Kelly
Originally posted by Proper Knob [b]Not completely, since like in any code there are rules that must be followed
This is true, but no one is stating that every mutation is beneficial to an organism. Most are either benign or harmful, only some are useful.[/b]
I say so what! The fact that you are telling me 'random mutations' are being
introduced and stable systems are result should tell you, you smoking something!
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJay The worm would always be in a constant state of change through mutations, there are no
rules that say mutations must leave the healthy as is so all life would be in
a state of flux would it not?
Yes, life is always in a state of flux. A crocodile of today may look like a crocodile of millions of years ago, but if you looked carefully at the DNA there would be significant differences.
I get that you and others here believe that only good changes stay, Not quite. We believe that excessively harmful changes do not stay (because they kill the host). We also believe that natural selection results in a bias towards good changes.
But there are many changes that are neutral, or mildly harmful that stay too - as you probably know, humans have many genetic diseases (harmful mutations) that are not necessarily fatal.
but that is a stacked deck that seems completely
unrealistic to me, only a true believe could hold to such a notion. We don't.
It is a stacked deck that can never fail, yea good ones remain so there is always life, it is
not realistic, considering all the changes that would have had to happen!
Kelly Please expand on that in the light of what I have said above.
Originally posted by KellyJay I believe in random mutations, I do not believe you can introduce massive random
changes over time to build new systems within a life form.
I don't think you have yet answered the question regarding hair length.
Do you accept that a single mutation can result in longer hair, and that this can result in greater survivability of the animal in question?
I also beg to differ on religion, there are more than a few people here to defend evolution with more passion than believers in God do. They use it to define their lives and build into it meaning and everything else. You don't need a god to have a religion!
Kelly Can you give me an example of such a person? I don't think I can think of anyone here that I would describe as using the theory of evolution to define their lives. I certainly do not.
And certainly, nobody in this thread is asking you to take up evolution as a religion, nor asking you to use it to define your life.
Originally posted by KellyJay I say so what! The fact that you are telling me 'random mutations' are being
introduced and stable systems are result should tell you, you smoking something!
Kelly
Nothing being smoked this end Kelly.
Let me just clarify here where the sticking point is. You accept that coding mistakes can happen when an organism is made. You accept these coding mistakes in the DNA can lead to 'mutations'.
Originally posted by Proper Knob Nothing being smoked this end Kelly.
Let me just clarify here where the sticking point is. You accept that coding mistakes can happen when an organism is made. You accept these coding mistakes in the DNA can lead to 'mutations'.
Correct so far?
I'll give there are mutations within stable systems that seem to have that as part
of their natural make up (as if by design), that is not the samething as saying you
can get extreme complex living system with multi-levels of complexity all springing
forward from random mutations! Again, think about that! Stable system generated
by throwing together things randomly in a ever diverse enviroment that is very
harsh.
Kelly
Originally posted by twhitehead I don't think you have yet answered the question regarding hair length.
Do you accept that a single mutation can result in longer hair, and that this can result in greater survivability of the animal in question?
[b]I also beg to differ on religion, there are more than a few people here to defend evolution with more passion than believers in God do. T asking you to take up evolution as a religion, nor asking you to use it to define your life.
"Do you accept that a single mutation can result in longer hair, and that this can result in greater survivability of the animal in question?"
[/b]I don't know, but if you say you can prove I'll read your proof.
Kelly
Originally posted by twhitehead Yes, life is always in a state of flux. A crocodile of today may look like a crocodile of millions of years ago, but if you looked carefully at the DNA there would be significant differences.
[b]I get that you and others here believe that only good changes stay, Not quite. We believe that excessively harmful changes do not stay (because they kill ...[text shortened]... d have had to happen!
Kelly[/b]
Please expand on that in the light of what I have said above.[/b]
"Yes, life is always in a state of flux. A crocodile of today may look like a crocodile of millions of years ago, but if you looked carefully at the DNA there would be significant differences. "
Again there are different types of crocodiles today, and you know you not looking
at just another type that died off a while ago why? It does not mean that one
came from the other it could also mean that they are just close in appearances.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJay I'll give there are mutations within stable systems that seem to have that as part
of their natural make up (as if by design), that is not the samething as saying you
can get extreme complex living system with multi-levels of complexity all springing
forward from random mutations! Again, think about that! Stable system generated
by throwing together things randomly in a ever diverse enviroment that is very
harsh.
Kelly
You're going to have to define what a 'stable system' is before we proceed.
Out of curiosity have you ever read any books on evolution written by an evolutionary biologist?
Originally posted by twhitehead Yes, life is always in a state of flux. A crocodile of today may look like a crocodile of millions of years ago, but if you looked carefully at the DNA there would be significant differences.
[b]I get that you and others here believe that only good changes stay, Not quite. We believe that excessively harmful changes do not stay (because they kill ...[text shortened]... d have had to happen!
Kelly[/b]
Please expand on that in the light of what I have said above.[/b]
but that is a stacked deck that seems completely
unrealistic to me, only a true believe could hold to such a notion. We don't.
Oh yes you do, you hold that life has been going through a countless amount of
change over billions of years and that life always remains in the end.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJay "Do you accept that a single mutation can result in longer hair, and that this can result in greater survivability of the animal in question?"
I don't know, but if you say you can prove I'll read your proof.
Kelly[/b]
Originally posted by KellyJay "Do you accept that a single mutation can result in longer hair, and that this can result in greater survivability of the animal in question?"
I don't know, but if you say you can prove I'll read your proof.
Kelly[/b]
“poof” of what? That there can be a mutation that gives rise to long hair or that long hair can give an animal a greater survival advantage?
If the former, then just look at the link Proper Knob has just given:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17433015
if the latter, why couldn't longer hair give an animal a greater survival advantage in an environment that has got colder? surely you don't require "proof" of this! -just reasoning.
Originally posted by Penguin Aw, bummer! I thought he was being quite receptive and reasonable too.
So we now know that Kelly has problems starting from point 4 but we have not yet found Karoly's line. Karoly, can Proper Knob continue? Do you accept his latest point?
--- Penguin.
Everything was clear until Kelly came along...
(No offense, Kelly)
But I think i was more or less in agreement with Proper Knob thus far...
Originally posted by karoly aczel Everything was clear until Kelly came along...
(No offense, Kelly)
But I think i was more or less in agreement with Proper Knob thus far...
On what part was that, that you can throw together random mutations over and
over again non-stop and as a direct result get stable systems in living creatures?
Kelly
RJHinds evolution thread
01 Apr '11 06:20
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