rolling the dice

Originally posted by stellspalfie
googlefudge has pretty much summed up where i was going with this. it puts god in a difficult position. if he already knew what was going to happen when he created adam, eve and satan, it begs the obvious question - why not just make a better version of them??? unless he cant, if he has no control over freewill and creates a being anyway (already knowin ...[text shortened]... no way of making sure something is going to be good and just rolls the dice or god doesnt care.

sigh, how long heavenly father must i dwell among them? 😛

why not make a better version, simple, it did not solve any of the issues that were raised, those being,

1.Gods universal sovereignty, does God have the right to that sovereignty
2. Vindication of Gods name (it was asserted that God was a liar and that humans would be better off morally independent)

remaking Adam and Eve would have solved none of these issues, thus God allowed the creation to be subject to futility and provided the Christ as a way for persons to redeem themselves from it. Its absolutely amazing in our eyes that he has done so, the greatest act of love, ever.

the rest of your assertions betrays a lack of understanding of these two central universal issues and its no surprise that your perspective is somewhat distorted.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
free will has never been absolute and remains relative.

Ok. lets make this simpler.

Do you believe that the universe is completely deterministic?

So like a film, it plays out a predetermined series of events.


EDIT: also, free will is relative to what?
That doesn't even make sense.
Did you mean free will is limited and/or restricted and not absolute?
If so, I wouldn't disagree... But my point is that in the scenario you are
describing free will isn't restricted it's non-existent.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
sigh, how long heavenly father must i dwell among them? 😛

why not make a better version, simple, it did not solve any of the issues that were raised, those being,

1.Gods universal sovereignty, does God have the right to that sovereignty
2. Vindication of Gods name (it was asserted that God was a liar and that humans would be better off moral ...[text shortened]... se two central universal issues and its no surprise that your perspective is somewhat distorted.

1.Gods universal sovereignty, does God have the right to that sovereignty

Um, no, no he doesn't.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Ok. lets make this simpler.

Do you believe that the universe is completely deterministic?

So like a film, it plays out a predetermined series of events.

sigh i have already explained, even if events are predetermined, we still have a relative measure of free will as to whether we comply with the demands of those events or not. We are not like a hijacked aeroplane in which the passengers have no choice, you have a choice to submit to Gods sovereignty or not, relative free will. Why this should be difficult for you to understand I cannot say?

Originally posted by googlefudge

1.Gods universal sovereignty, does God have the right to that sovereignty

Um, no, no he doesn't.

yes and you were also a world war one flying ace, awesome.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
sigh i have already explained, even if events are predetermined, we still have a relative measure of free will as to whether we comply with the demands of those events or not. We are not like a hijacked aeroplane in which the passengers have no choice, you have a choice to submit to Gods sovereignty or not, relative free will. Why this should be difficult for you to understand I cannot say?

No you haven't explained... although you might have stated.


If the universe is pre-determined we don't have a choice.

We are PART of the universe, our minds made of stuff in this universe.

If the universe is predetermined, which is a requirement for god or anyone else
to predict or see the future perfectly into eternity, then our mind states are
also predetermined.
We would have no ability to change the thoughts we have as they would have
been determined at the moment of creation.

Why this is hard for you to understand eludes me.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes and you were also a world war one flying ace, awesome.

You asked. That's the answer.

Originally posted by googlefudge
You asked. That's the answer.

your opinions are meaningless without corroborating evidence

Originally posted by googlefudge
No you haven't explained... although you might have stated.


If the universe is pre-determined we don't have a choice.

We are PART of the universe, our minds made of stuff in this universe.

If the universe is predetermined, which is a requirement for god or anyone else
to predict or see the future perfectly into eternity, then our mind states ...[text shortened]...
been determined at the moment of creation.

Why this is hard for you to understand eludes me.

yes you do have a choice as i have already explained, if on an island in which a volcano is violently active and spewing ash and molten lava and will imminently erupt, you have a choice to stay or leave, to say that you have no choice because its been predetermined that it will erupt at some point in the future is ludicrous.

Originally posted by googlefudge
You asked. That's the answer.

thumbed up two posts, your Karma should be coming good now.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
your opinions are meaningless without corroborating evidence

You want me to provide evidence that your god isn't the ruler of the universe when you can't provide me evidence that he exists?

Originally posted by googlefudge
You want me to provide evidence that your god isn't the ruler of the universe when you can't provide me evidence that he exists?

I want you to provide evidence that God has no right to rule the universe as you have asserted. You cannot prove or disprove Gods existence, for you and me, its a matter of faith.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
sigh, how long heavenly father must i dwell among them? 😛

why not make a better version, simple, it did not solve any of the issues that were raised, those being,

1.Gods universal sovereignty, does God have the right to that sovereignty
2. Vindication of Gods name (it was asserted that God was a liar and that humans would be better off moral ...[text shortened]... se two central universal issues and its no surprise that your perspective is somewhat distorted.

why not make a better version, simple, it did not solve any of the issues that were raised, those being,

duh!! the issues you are referring to wouldnt have arisen if a better adam,eve and satan had been made.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes you do have a choice as i have already explained, if on an island in which a volcano is violently active and spewing ash and molten lava and will imminently erupt, you have a choice to stay or leave, to say that you have no choice because its been predetermined that it will erupt at some point in the future is ludicrous.

I know you keep saying I have a choice... But I think you are wrong and you are not
listening to me explain why I think that.

If you think my explanation of why is wrong then you need to say why and not
just keep restating your position... I KNOW your position, and think it's wrong.

That's why we are having this discussion.


In a deterministic universe. EVERYTHING is predetermined, from the motions
of the stars and planets to volcanic eruptions to the individual subatomic particles
that together make up your mind.

Given that in a deterministic universe every single particle of your body is following
a pre-determined path from which it cannot alter then there is no ability to choose
what that body does by the mind encased inside it.
Even IF that mind were not, as in reality it is, the product of the physical brain that
is just as predetermined as everything else.


So in your scenario, the person living on the island is as predetermined as the volcano
and thus the choice they make to stay or go was decided at the moment of the universes
creation as an inevitable consequence of everything that occurred from the beginning of
time to the present.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]why not make a better version, simple, it did not solve any of the issues that were raised, those being,

duh!! the issues you are referring to wouldnt have arisen if a better adam,eve and satan had been made.[/b]

duh, yes they would, Adam and Eve were perfect!