rolling the dice

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I want you to provide evidence that God has no right to rule the universe as you have asserted. You cannot prove or disprove Gods existence, for you and me, its a matter of faith.

Then you are a hypocrite, by asking me for evidence to back up my position when you require none to back up yours.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
duh, yes they would, Adam and Eve were perfect!

If they were perfect then they couldn't make a mistake, or do anything wrong...
kinda by definition.

Thus to fall they can't have been perfect.

Originally posted by googlefudge
I know you keep saying I have a choice... But I think you are wrong and you are not
listening to me explain why I think that.

If you think my explanation of why is wrong then you need to say why and not
just keep restating your position... I KNOW your position, and think it's wrong.

That's why we are having this discussion.


In a determinis ...[text shortened]... inevitable consequence of everything that occurred from the beginning of
time to the present.

Ok, you are correct i was not listening, sorry. Now I have listened, understood and assimilated your text, there is no evidence that every molecule in the universe has been predetermined to act in a specific predetermined manner, what you are referring to appears to me to be a kind of fate. I don't believe it.

Originally posted by googlefudge
If they were perfect then they couldn't make a mistake, or do anything wrong...
kinda by definition.

Thus to fall they can't have been perfect.

wrong as I have already explained with my amazing snooker analogy, perfection is also relative. Even the Christ would not speak without an illustration.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I want you to provide evidence that God has no right to rule the universe as you have asserted. You cannot prove or disprove Gods existence, for you and me, its a matter of faith.

Actually... More to the point.

What EVIDENCE could be provided as to the question of gods RIGHT to rule the universe?

We are talking about morality and ethics when we talk about rights.

This isn't a discussion of gods ability to rule the universe, but whether he is justified in
doing so.

So unless you are going to simply say that might makes right, which I will never agree to,
the question of EVIDENCE doesn't arise.

It's a matter for moral argument and debate not of evidence.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Then you are a hypocrite, by asking me for evidence to back up my position when you require none to back up yours.

No hypocrisy, i realise that evidence for Gods existence or non existence cannot be proffered and have said as much, you have uttered forth a statement, a truth claim, without the slightest evidence, where is it? make with the reddiies Rodney or retract the assertion?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Ok, you are correct i was not listening, sorry. Now I have listened, understood and assimilated your text, there is no evidence that every molecule in the universe has been predetermined to act in a specific predetermined manner, what you are referring to appears to me to be a kind of fate. I don't believe it.

Ok fine, that's great. I don't necessarily believe the universe does in fact work like that.

However the point was that in that kind of universe as you say there is no free will of
the kind you are talking about and require. And you don't think the universe works that way.


However my original argument stated that for god to be able to see the entire future of the
universe into eternity then the universe MUST be of that kind of deterministic nature.

Which means you have a choice.

You can claim that god has 20:20 perfect future vision, and thus that we live in a completely
deterministic universe with no free will.

OR

You can claim we have free will and god thus can't see perfectly into the future.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Actually... More to the point.

What EVIDENCE could be provided as to the question of gods RIGHT to rule the universe?

We are talking about morality and ethics when we talk about rights.

This isn't a discussion of gods ability to rule the universe, but whether he is justified in
doing so.

So unless you are going to simply say that might make ...[text shortened]... stion of EVIDENCE doesn't arise.

It's a matter for moral argument and debate not of evidence.

On the contrary, after six thousand years of human history, its apparent that Gods universal sovereignty, by comparison to human institutions is by far the right choice and as a consequence after having eliminated all attempts at human rule, Gods rule will be established as the most just, balanced, practical and loving and thus rightful arrangement.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
On the contrary, after six thousand years of human history, its apparent that Gods universal sovereignty, by comparison to human institutions is by far the right choice and as a consequence after having eliminated all attempts at human rule, Gods rule will be established as the most just, balanced, practical and loving and thus rightful arrangement.

Whoa. Hang on.

My point was that the argument over whether god had a right to rule
(assuming god existed) was a discussion of morality and ethics and not
of evidence.

Given that, your post doesn't make sense or deal with that point.

Can we agree that this is a question of ethics and morality and not one
of evidence?

Originally posted by googlefudge
Ok fine, that's great. I don't necessarily believe the universe does in fact work like that.

However the point was that in that kind of universe as you say there is no free will of
the kind you are talking about and require. And you don't think the universe works that way.


However my original argument stated that for god to be able to see the e ...[text shortened]... will.

OR

You can claim we have free will and god thus can't see perfectly into the future.

no i don't think it must be that kind of deterministic universe, you can let events unfold without knowing each and every specific detail, for example, in watercolour painting, you can let the pigments blend but still control to some extent the random permutations, a kind of controlled chaos.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Whoa. Hang on.

My point was that the argument over whether god had a right to rule
(assuming god existed) was a discussion of morality and ethics and not
of evidence.

Given that, your post doesn't make sense or deal with that point.

Can we agree that this is a question of ethics and morality and not one
of evidence?

No, i only deal in empircs, as a man of science i must demand empirical evidence.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Whoa. Hang on.

My point was that the argument over whether god had a right to rule
(assuming god existed) was a discussion of morality and ethics and not
of evidence.

Given that, your post doesn't make sense or deal with that point.

Can we agree that this is a question of ethics and morality and not one
of evidence?

dude i am tired and unwell, i need to rest.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no i don't think it must be that kind of deterministic universe, you can let events unfold without knowing each and every specific detail, for example, in watercolour painting, you can let the pigments blend but still control to some extent the random permutations, a kind of controlled chaos.

Ok, but you are now not talking about perfect ability to see the future into eternity.

It's obviously possible to make predictions about the future, WE do it all the time.

However as time moves forwards, those predictions loose accuracy.

The more detail you can model, the better the prediction you can make.

And I am prepared to accept that if real your hypothetical god would be the
best it's possible to be at predicting the future.

However, unless the universe is deterministic, random fluctuations will alter it's
course... and certainly if you want free will, intelligent agents will make choices
that have consequences that change things.

In which case no being, no matter how good at making predictions, can see the future
into eternity. Because that future is undetermined. It's not written yet.


If you want god to have perfect future vision then you must give up free will and
accept fate.

If you want free will and not have the universe be predetermined then you must give
up god having a perfect view of the future.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No, i only deal in empircs, as a man of science i must demand empirical evidence.

This statement is incompatible with the faith based belief you claimed earlier.



OK. Show me the empirical evidence that Sibelius's Finlandia Suite is a beautiful
piece of music.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
dude i am tired and unwell, i need to rest.

So? Yes, or no would have been quicker to type.

If you're that unwell, then come back when you're feeling better.

If not, then answer the question.

And if you are unwell, then get well soon.

Take some modern medicine produced by science and be thankful you
don't live in the dark ages any more.