1. Joined
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    03 Dec '13 10:24
    god has a bad track record with creation. three of his first key creations with freewill (adam, eve and satan) went bad and between them have caused centuries of pain and mayhem. apparently 1/3 of angels also went bad.

    so from this we can figure out that when god creates a creature with free will he is effectively rolling the dice. he has no idea if they will come out good or bad. soooooo, how did he know jesus would be good? did he just cross his godly fingers and pray to himself? also if god has freewill how does he know that a bad thought (some may say he's already had a few) might not just pop into his head one day and stay, god is perfect though (they argue) but wasnt satan also described as perfect?
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    03 Dec '13 10:425 edits
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    god has a bad track record with creation. three of his first key creations with freewill (adam, eve and satan) went bad and between them have caused centuries of pain and mayhem. apparently 1/3 of angels also went bad.

    so from this we can figure out that when god creates a creature with free will he is effectively rolling the dice. he has no idea if ...[text shortened]... one day and stay, god is perfect though (they argue) but wasnt satan also described as perfect?
    God being outside of the constraints of time, can look infinitely forward to events, thus rebellions against his universal sovereignty pose no threat, he simply makes a contingency plan which may be realised at some point in the future, this is in fact why Christ came to earth.

    God had trust in the Christ, after all they had spent aeons together, he has trust in his Christian witnesses, we have trust in him, everything is good, there is no rolling of the dice, as Einstein stated, 'God does not play dice', the responsibility for submitting to or rejecting Gods universal sovereignty lies entirely with the individual.

    what will you choose stellspalfie, to submit to God or to establish your own code of morality, you have the same choice as Adam and Eve, Satan or the Christ? What will you choose?
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    03 Dec '13 11:07
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    god has a bad track record with creation. three of his first key creations with freewill (adam, eve and satan) went bad and between them have caused centuries of pain and mayhem. apparently 1/3 of angels also went bad.

    so from this we can figure out that when god creates a creature with free will he is effectively rolling the dice. he has no idea if ...[text shortened]... one day and stay, god is perfect though (they argue) but wasnt satan also described as perfect?
    sorry just had to thumb your post down, redress the balance.
  4. Joined
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    03 Dec '13 11:11
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    God being outside of the constraints of time, can look infinitely forward to events, thus rebellions against his universal sovereignty pose no threat, he simply makes a contingency plan which may be realised at some point in the future, this is in fact why Christ came to earth.

    God had trust in the Christ, after all they had spent aeons together, ...[text shortened]... morality, you have the same choice as Adam and Eve, Satan or the Christ? What will you choose?
    For god to be able to look infinitely into the future requires a predetermined deterministic
    universe which negates the idea of free will (at least in the form you are requiring).

    We have no choice because it was already predetermined before we even existed.


    With no predetermined universe then nothing, not even god can predict the future with
    certainty.
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    03 Dec '13 11:19
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    For god to be able to look infinitely into the future requires a predetermined deterministic
    universe which negates the idea of free will (at least in the form you are requiring).

    We have no choice because it was already predetermined before we even existed.


    With no predetermined universe then nothing, not even god can predict the future with
    certainty.
    In a sense yes, but not on Gods part, he being outside the constraints of time can look infinitely forward or choose not to. Free will has always been relative, you have free will to jump from the top of a tall building whether you decide to do so and submit yourself to the laws of gravity is entirely up to you, never the less, you still have the choice to do so, whether its within your interests to do so, is another matter, either way your course of action is not predetermined.
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    03 Dec '13 11:20
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    For god to be able to look infinitely into the future requires a predetermined deterministic
    universe which negates the idea of free will (at least in the form you are requiring).

    We have no choice because it was already predetermined before we even existed.


    With no predetermined universe then nothing, not even god can predict the future with
    certainty.
    sorry i just had to thumb your post up to try to increase your positivity.
  7. Cape Town
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    03 Dec '13 11:27
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    God being outside of the constraints of time, can look infinitely forward to events, thus rebellions against his universal sovereignty pose no threat, he simply makes a contingency plan which may be realised at some point in the future, this is in fact why Christ came to earth.
    Can he change a future he has already seen? ie if he sees a rebellion in the future could he stop it before it happens? If not, then surely rebellions do pose a threat.
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    03 Dec '13 11:301 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Can he change a future he has already seen? ie if he sees a rebellion in the future could he stop it before it happens? If not, then surely rebellions do pose a threat.
    I suspect that he could change the outcome, yes, but may choose not to for certain reasons, for example he allowed the Canaanites to rebel until their sin had reached a fullness, he allowed Job to be tempted in order to test his integrity, allowed the Christ to suffer because it accomplished a purpose. No doubt God could have changed the outcome but chose not to for various reasons.
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    03 Dec '13 11:31
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Can he change a future he has already seen? ie if he sees a rebellion in the future could he stop it before it happens? If not, then surely rebellions do pose a threat.
    sorry had to thumb your post down, nothing personal, just i like balance.
  10. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    03 Dec '13 11:41
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    god has a bad track record with creation. three of his first key creations with freewill (adam, eve and satan) went bad and between them have caused centuries of pain and mayhem. apparently 1/3 of angels also went bad.

    so from this we can figure out that when god creates a creature with free will he is effectively rolling the dice. he has no idea if ...[text shortened]... one day and stay, god is perfect though (they argue) but wasnt satan also described as perfect?
    stellspalfie, this appears to be a serious inquiry with a catchy title; if your interest remains genuine, I'll weigh in.
  11. Joined
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    03 Dec '13 11:46
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    In a sense yes, but not on Gods part, he being outside the constraints of time can look infinitely forward or choose not to. Free will has always been relative, you have free will to jump from the top of a tall building whether you decide to do so and submit yourself to the laws of gravity is entirely up to you, never the less, you still have the cho ...[text shortened]... ur interests to do so, is another matter, either way your course of action is not predetermined.
    Whether or not your god is outside the constraints of time (whatever that means).

    We in this universe are not outside of it's constraints.

    If god can see what will happen in the future for this universe with certainty then
    that means that the future is already determined.

    If god is not in the same time frame and can view our universe non-linearly then
    that means that the future and the past already exist. And if god knows exactly
    what is going to happen then they are also fixed.

    That means a fully determined and deterministic universe. Nothing can change within it.
    Like a film that has already been shot and distributed on indestructible and
    unwriteable media. The ending has already been written, and shot.
    The characters are destined and doomed to do the same things no-matter how many times
    you play the film. They have no choice and no volition, their words and actions chosen
    by the director and scriptwriter before they were even cast.

    If that is the case then the person standing on top of the building doesn't have a choice
    about whether or not they jump off the building, it's already been predetermined (by god)
    whether they do or not.
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    03 Dec '13 12:01
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    Whether or not your god is outside the constraints of time (whatever that means).

    We in this universe are not outside of it's constraints.

    If god can see what will happen in the future for this universe with certainty then
    that means that the future is already determined.

    If god is not in the same time frame and can view our universe non-linea ...[text shortened]... t they jump off the building, it's already been predetermined (by god)
    whether they do or not.
    free will has never been absolute and remains relative.
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    03 Dec '13 12:02
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    Whether or not your god is outside the constraints of time (whatever that means).

    We in this universe are not outside of it's constraints.

    If god can see what will happen in the future for this universe with certainty then
    that means that the future is already determined.

    If god is not in the same time frame and can view our universe non-linea ...[text shortened]... t they jump off the building, it's already been predetermined (by god)
    whether they do or not.
    another thumbs up to increase your positivity 😀
  14. Joined
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    03 Dec '13 12:13
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    God being outside of the constraints of time, can look infinitely forward to events, thus rebellions against his universal sovereignty pose no threat, he simply makes a contingency plan which may be realised at some point in the future, this is in fact why Christ came to earth.

    God had trust in the Christ, after all they had spent aeons together, ...[text shortened]... morality, you have the same choice as Adam and Eve, Satan or the Christ? What will you choose?
    googlefudge has pretty much summed up where i was going with this. it puts god in a difficult position. if he already knew what was going to happen when he created adam, eve and satan, it begs the obvious question - why not just make a better version of them??? unless he cant, if he has no control over freewill and creates a being anyway (already knowing what the outcome is going to be bad) indicates that god doesnt have freewill because he cant stop himself from creating something he knows will turn out bad.

    if he does freewill and creates something he is aware is going to cause needless suffering then either - god has no way of making sure something is going to be good and just rolls the dice or god doesnt care.
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    03 Dec '13 12:25
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I suspect that he could change the outcome, yes, but may choose not to for certain reasons, for example he allowed the Canaanites to rebel until their sin had reached a fullness, he allowed Job to be tempted in order to test his integrity, allowed the Christ to suffer because it accomplished a purpose. No doubt God could have changed the outcome but chose not to for various reasons.
    when the world was as simple as adam and eve. with one simple option to eat from the tree or not. it can not be argued that god had his reasons for creating an adam and eve who ate the fruit, because that suggests the fall of man was always part of gods plan.

    so this indicates that god was unable to create a different adam and eve. either he didnt have the ability or he didnt know what was coming.
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