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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    15 May '18 05:36
    Interesting article that views salvation as separate from discipleship:

    “Are All Believers Disciples?

    By Bob Wilkin

    Many today are saying that the call of discipleship is the call of salvation. They suggest that to be saved one must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Christ. That one must forsake all to be saved. That one must count the cost of becoming a Christian. That there is a price to pay for eternal salvation.

    One suggested line of evidence for this view is the fact that the Book of Acts typically refers to Christians as disciples. If discipleship is not a condition of salvation, how is it that Luke seems to describe all believers in Acts as disciples?

    The answer, I think, is fairly simple if we construct the syllogism underlying this argument.

    Major Premise: All saved people are disciples.
    Minor Premise: Discipleship is costly.
    Conclusion: Salvation is costly.

    The minor premise is surely true. Discipleship is costly. See Luke 14:25-33.

    The conclusion is obviously false. Salvation is absolutely free. There is no cost to the recipient. Salvation is the gift of God (John 4:10; Eph 2:9; Rev 22:17). Gifts are, by definition, free to the recipient. To speak of a gift that costs is as illogical as speaking of a circle which is square. Both are impossible and illogical. Salvation is not costly to the recipient. It is free.

    Therefore, either the major premise or the syllogism itself must be flawed in some way.

    The major premise is not quite accurate. The accurate statement is this: all saved people under biblical instruction are disciples.

    Jesus indicated in Matthew 28:18-20 that to make disciples we must baptize people and teach them to observe all that He commanded. The word disciple means a learner. Jesus had many disciples, pupils. Some, like Judas, were even unsaved. But all disciples were learners.

    Luke in Acts does not discuss the issue of whether there might be saved people who were not baptized and not under the instruction of the church. That question was not part of his purpose. (Nor does he explicitly deal with the issue of whether there were unsaved people in the early church who were under biblical instruction and hence could be called disciples.) However, clearly it is conceivable that a person could be saved and not under biblical instruction. If a saved person was receiving absolutely no biblical instruction, then they could rightly be called a believer but not a disciple.

    On the other hand, if a saved person receives instruction, he would rightly be called a disciple regardless of how mature or immature he was in Christ. Even an immature believer could be called a disciple. Indeed, Luke points out that the people in Ephesus who came and burned their magic books had been believers for some time (Acts 19:18). Either Luke considered these people to have been believers who were not disciples or, more likely, disciples who were relatively immature.

    If we adjust the conclusion in light of the adjusted major premise we come up with this syllogism:

    Major Premise: All saved people under biblical instruction are
    disciples.
    Minor Premise: Discipleship is costly.
    Conclusion: It is costly for saved people to submit to biblical
    instruction.

    Here is another syllogism approaching the subject from a different angle:

    Major Premise: Salvation is free.
    Minor Premise: Discipleship is costly.
    Conclusion: Salvation and discipleship are not the same thing.”
  2. Standard member apathist
    looking for loot
    15 May '18 05:49
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    ... Salvation is absolutely free. ...
    Good to know. So debating scripture is just for fun.
  3. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    15 May '18 05:52
    Originally posted by @apathist
    Good to know. So debating scripture is just for fun.
    I’ve always believed salvation is by faith alone as reflected in John 3:16 and Romans 10:9.

    Others believe salvation is by works, and still others faith plus works.

    I think good works follow salvation but aren’t a requirement of it.
  4. Standard member dj2becker
    rentrer à la maison
    15 May '18 05:59
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    I’ve always believed salvation is by faith alone as reflected in John 3:16 and Romans 10:9.

    Others believe salvation is by works, and still others faith plus works.

    I think good works follow salvation but aren’t a requirement of it.
    I think if good works do not follow faith, the faith is not genuine.
  5. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    15 May '18 06:05
    Originally posted by @dj2becker
    I think if good works do not follow faith, the faith is not genuine.
    I totally agree with that.

    The distinction comes when someone believes in Christ shortly before dying (like the thief on the cross.) I believe a person in that situation is still saved, even though he did not have time to do good works before dying.
  6. Standard member apathist
    looking for loot
    15 May '18 06:05
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    ...
    I think good works follow salvation but aren’t a requirement of it.
    I do get that point. If you love Jesus of course you try to be a good person.
    Lots of people don't believe in Jesus and yet still try to be good people. It's like loving Jesus or being good are separate issues.
  7. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    15 May '18 06:10
    Originally posted by @apathist
    I do get that point. If you love Jesus of course you try to be a good person.
    Lots of people don't believe in Jesus and yet still try to be good people. It's like loving Jesus or being good are separate issues.
    The greatest thing a Christian could do for another person is lead them to Christ. That obviously has eternal consequences. Aside from that, this is a good Bible verse that reflects what I think Jesus considers good works:

    “Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.”

    (Galatians 6:2)
  8. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    15 May '18 06:12
    Incidentally, there are conflicting views with the OP. Other articles (too lengthy to post here but easily found via Google) say Christians and disciples are one and the same. Hard to square that with the Biblical description of salvation as a gift.
  9. Standard member dj2becker
    rentrer à la maison
    15 May '18 06:15
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    I totally agree with that.

    The distinction comes when someone believes in Christ shortly before dying (like the thief on the cross.) I believe a person in that situation is still saved, even though he did not have time to do good works before dying.
    Agreed.
  10. 15 May '18 13:04 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    Interesting article that views salvation as separate from discipleship:

    “Are All Believers Disciples?

    By Bob Wilkin

    Many today are saying that the call of discipleship is the call of salvation. They suggest that to be saved one must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Christ. That one must forsake all to be saved. That one must count the ...[text shortened]... remise: Discipleship is costly.
    Conclusion: Salvation and discipleship are not the same thing.”
    Jesus explicitly defines His true disciples as those who no longer commit sin.

    John 8
    "34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
    " 31 ...If you [abide} in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

    Jesus echoes that concept in the following:

    John 15
    8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

    Those who keep His commandments, i.e., no longer commit sin, are His true disciples.

    In each of the above passages, Jesus warns what happens to those who are not His true disciples:

    John 8
    35“The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.

    John 15
    . 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
  11. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    15 May '18 13:14 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    Jesus explicitly defines His true disciples as those who no longer commit sin.

    John 8
    "34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
    " 31 ...If you [abide} in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”


    What about if Jesus forgives their sins?

    Peter denied his Lord three times and with cursing anger and cowardice. He and the other disciples ran away after they had promised Jesus that they would not.

    After His resurrection the angel (who should know who is and who is not a disciple of Jesus) told the women to go and tell His disciples and Peter.

    "But go, tell His disciples and Peter that He is going before you into Galilee. There you will see Him, even as He told you." (Mark 16:7)

    The "disciples" had severely backslid into sinful forsaking of their Master and hypocrisy. Jesus forgave them. And they were STILL "His disciples."

    Are you afraid that you won't be able to be a disciple of the Lord Jesus ?
  12. 15 May '18 13:25
    Originally posted by @sonship
    Jesus explicitly defines His true disciples as those who no longer commit sin.

    John 8
    "34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
    " 31 ...If you [abide} in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”


    What ...[text shortened]... s disciples."


    Are you afraid that you won't be able to be a disciple of the Lord Jesus ?[/b]
    Jesus was very explicit in defining His true disciples as those who no longer commit sin.

    There is the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry and there is the gospel preached by others.

    Evidently instead of embracing the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry, you continue to embrace the gospel preached by others.
  13. Standard member apathist
    looking for loot
    15 May '18 14:10
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    The greatest thing a Christian could do for another person is lead them to Christ. ...
    Exactly why? The deed is done and of course we need to build a statue or something, but I'm saved regardless. Why is the greatest thing a christian can do is to praise lord? How about the greatest thing a human can do is to make our world better? That isn't on your radar?
  14. Standard member Rajk999
    Enjoying
    15 May '18 15:18 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    Interesting article that views salvation as separate from discipleship:

    “Are All Believers Disciples?

    By Bob Wilkin..”
    Bob Wilkin ? Who is he
  15. Standard member Rajk999
    Enjoying
    15 May '18 15:20
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    Jesus was very explicit in defining His true disciples as those who no longer commit sin.

    There is the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry and there is the gospel preached by others.

    Evidently instead of embracing the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry, you continue to embrace the gospel preached by others.
    Very explicit indeed.
    But they say that they can continue in sin.