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Originally posted by Rajk999Playing God again? You just cannot resist the temptation. You actually know what is Ananias and Sapphira's fate?
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No I am not playing God. I used the phrase "I believe" which means I am not omniscient.
I wrote:
I believe that Ananias and Saphira in Acts 5 were and still are sheep in the hand of the unfailing love of the Father and the all powerful hand of the Son.
And I have good reason to believe that.
For my scriptural reasons for believing you say I am "playing God."
This is slander.
But for interests' sake let us assume that we know that they were never Christians. We don't know. But for argument let's say the whole church in Jerusalem and the apostles were fooled.
The point STILL stands that to "suffer loss" is so wide open to a variety of specifics, we can only assume that it could mean anything short of eternal punishment.
God is the wisest judged of all in all the universe. If a worldly judge knows what remedy to dispense upon one needing correction, surely God knows more.
I would advise Christians that to "suffer loss" yet be saved as through fire, could mean whatever the disciplining yet loving Father deems necessary to apply.
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Playing God again? You just cannot resist the temptation. You actually know what is Ananias and Sapphira's fate?
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Loaded questions again instead of good reasons to disagree ?
Back to a matter. You accuse me of encouraging Christians to sin.
This slander of yours is the same as what the Judaizers criticized the apostles of.
" And why not say (as we are slanderously charged and as some affirm that we say), Let us do evil that good may come? whose judgment is just." (Rom. 3:8)
You are amazingly the same as the firt century opposers of the faithful evangelists of the early church.
" What then shall we say? Should we continue in sin that grace may abound? " (Rom. 6:1)
From here Paul goes on deeper in chapter 6 to speak about the believers' oneness with Christ. Our only hope is oneness with Christ. Only Christ is absolute for the Father's will. And only by standing in faith utterly identifying in Him does the believer gain practical victory.
The way of this moment by moment union is mostly elaborated on in Romans chapter 8. That is about the indwelling law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
Originally posted by sonshipLike a typical false teacher you twist the bible to say whatever your little heart desires.
[b] Playing God again? You just cannot resist the temptation. You actually know what is Ananias and Sapphira's fate?
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Loaded questions again instead of good reasons to disagree ?
Back to a matter. You accuse me of encouraging Christians to sin.
This slander of ...[text shortened]... Romans chapter 8. [/b] That is about the indwelling law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.[/b]
On the one hand you twist the Bible to say that all Christians are saved eternally and they can sin all they please, as their eternal life is guaranteed [by Watchman Nee maybe .. certainly not by God]
On the other you twist the Bible to make it say that all non-Christians will burn and tormented in the lake of fire for all eternity, even though they may not have sinned.
Your focus is far from Christ, who preached good works and righteousness as pre-requites for ALL people before entry into the Kingdom of God.
Your time to account for yourself is not far away.. 😀
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Originally posted by Rajk999Like a typical false teacher you twist the bible to say whatever your little heart desires.
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Teaching the security of eternal redemption and eternal life is not twisting the Bible. It is affirming its promise.
Teaching that being saved through grace as a GIFT is QUOTING the Bible and not twisting it.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works that no one should boast." (Eph. 2:8,9)
Do not complain that I didn't quote more. I know what the rest of the passage says. This part says that to be saved is the gift of God, not the loan of God to be reclaimed.
Teaching that eternal life is the gift of God is also not twisting the Bible but rather QUOTING it.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
A strong foundation in eternal security in being joined to Christ is a good foundation for sanctification. You wrongly teach that security is a bad foundation.
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On the one hand you twist the Bible to say that all Christians are saved eternally and they can sin all they please,
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No I QUOTE that New Testament that the Christian should depart from unrighteousness -
" However the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those who are His, and Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness." ( 2 Tim. 2:19)
And two false concepts from you I corrected:
1.) Yes, in the last analysis God cannot make a mistake in knowing who has been imparted with His divine life. The church may make a mistake and take an unregenerated person for a regenerated person. But God knows.
2.) Because God is omniscient is not a call to be ambiguous on general principle, refusing to admit that we have eternal life. Yes, only God knows for sure. But this is not an excuse to teach believers that they SHOULD be wishy washy like you about it.
3.) Once born of God we should use our living union with Christ to indeed depart from unrighteousness. There are consequences for failing to do so. But those consequences are not for God to take back His imparted divine life.
Try as you do you are never able to prove that I teach there are NO consequences for a Christian NOT to depart from unrighteousness.
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as their eternal life is guaranteed [by Watchman Nee maybe .. certainly not by God
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John 10:28,29 came out of the mouth of the Lord Jesus first. Watchman Nee cannot be blamed for the sheep being unable to be snatched from the Father and the Son's hand.
Incidently, Watchman Nee wrote the three volume classic "The Spiritual Man" when he was only twenty three years old.
I am sure he had much more spiritual progress at 23 than you have yet attained, or I.
One day you may look back on the foolish things you wrote with embarrassment. Snotty kids often do when they get more grown up.
On the other you twist the Bible to make it say that all non-Christians will burn and tormented in the lake of fire for all eternity, even though they may not have sinned.
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Here again I QUOTE the Bible -
" And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)
The book of life also called "the Lamb's" book of life. The Lamb is the Godman Redeemer - Jesus.
Revelation 13:8 ESV
And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Rev. 21:27
But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Your focus is far from Christ,
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My focus it is definitely Christ.
It is so much focused on Christ that you oppose it.
Your time to account for yourself is not far away
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That is right.
And it is before His bema seat I will give an account and not yours. And with brother Paul I also would confess -
2 Corinthians 5:11-21King James Version (KJV)
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Originally posted by sonshipI notice you boldly quote the above as if it applies only to non Christians. There are going to be Christians whose names are NOT in the book of Life in case you did not know that. The time when these things will be revealed is on the day of judgment .. not before. So maybe you should resist the temptation to go around fooling the gullible
.. " And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)
I find this statement you made rather interesting:
Incidently, Watchman Nee wrote the three volume classic "The Spiritual Man" when he was only twenty three years old.
I am sure he had much more spiritual progress at 23 than you have yet attained, or I..
First it proves what I already know that you have put this man up on a pedestal higher than you have Christ. For you this false teacher seems to be your saviour.
Next spiritual progress has nothing to do with writing books of having knowledge. I would imagine that they writers of the Watchtower publications require a similar amount of writing skill and knowledge and yet you disagree with them. Christ is not impressed with well written false doctrines. Spiritual progress is about resisting the evil of the flesh and of the world.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
I notice you boldly quote the above as if it applies only to non Christians.
Revelation 20:15 a glimpse of the last divine judgment of time, says that anyone's name not written in the book of life (which is the Lamb's book of life) will be cast into the lake of fire.
Personally, I do not claim that I know all the ways in all human history in which someone's name ends up written in the Lamb's book of life. But for sure, believing into the Lamb (Jesus the Redeemer) puts my name there.
There are going to be Christians whose names are NOT in the book of Life in case you did not know that.
I know that there is the warning of Revelation 3:5. I have known that verse before the Internet was invented. Here it is:
He who overcomes will be clothed thus, in white garments, and I shall by no means erase his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name efore My Father and before His angels."
This certainly comes under the category of suffering loss, yet being saved yet so as through fire too. That is because the ERASING the saved man's name out of the book of life, must be a temporary punishment.
During the 1,000 millennial kingdom which precedes the eternal age, some disciplined saints may have thier names erased out of the book of life for a dispensation. A portion of the enjoyment of divine life they will forfeit.
By the end of the millennial time when they have undergone some kind of discipline, their names should be again appear in the book of life for the eternal age of the new heaven and the new earth.
The time when these things will be revealed is on the day of judgment .. not before. So maybe you should resist the temptation to go around fooling the gullible
At the judgment seat of Christ this would occur.
The judgment seat of Christ is for saints of God, Christians for sure.
The warning about the erasing of the name is TO "the church in Sardis 1:1" so it is too believers.
The footnote 5(3) on Rev. 3:5 of the Recovery Version is instructive. (My bolding, my spacing)
The entire verse is the Lord's promise to the overcomers. It will be fulfilled in the millennial kingdom after the Lord comes back. That a name is erased out of the book of life indicates that that name has already been written in the book of life. The book of life is a divine record of the names of those who partake of the blessings that God has prepared for them. The names of all the saints chosen by God and predestinated to partake of these blessings are written in this book (Luke 10:20). These blessings are in three stages:
(1) in the church,
(2) in the millennial kingdom,
(3) in eternity.
The blessings in that stage of the church, such as forgiveness, redemption,regeneration,eternal life, the divine nature, etc., are the initial portions. All God's chosen ones whose names are written in the book of life have a share in these initial portions to begin thier spiritual life.
If they cooperate with God's supplying grace, they will mature in life in the church age, and this earlier maturity in life will constitute a prize with which the Lord will reward them at His coming back. That prize will be the entrance into the millennial kingdom and participation in the divine blessings in that stage, such as the joy and rest of the Lord (Matt. 24:21,23; Heb. 4:9-11), the reign over the nations (2:26-27;20:4,6), etc., which God has prepared as an incentive for His chosen ones to go on with Him in the church age.
I am only able to write this much right now.
Cont. latter.
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We were talking about the erasing on a Christian's name from the book of life as written in Revelation 3:5)
Continuing the Footnote in the Recovery Version
[My bolding and spacing]
"However, many of His chosen ones. after receiving His forgiveness, redemption, eternal life, divine life, etc., will not cooperate with His grace and will not go on with Him. Hence, they are unable to mature in life in the church age and this will not be ready at the Lord's coming back to enter into the millennial kingdom and share in the divine blessings of that age as a prize.
Therefore, during the millennial kingdom their names will be erased from the book of life.
After being disciplined by the Lord and growing in life unto maturity during the millennial kingdom, they will share in the divine blessings in the stage of eternity, such as the eternal priesthood with God's eternal presence, the eternal kingdship (22:3-5), the New Jerusalem, the tree of life (22:14), the water of life (22:17), etc.
At that time their names should again be written in the book of life. This means that all God's chosen ones whose names are written in the book of life and who have been brought into the participation of the divine blessings in the stage of the of the church "shall by no means perish forever" (John 10:28) ; that is, they shall by no means lose the divine blessings of eternity.
But some, those who do not cooperate with the Lord in the church agee. will be dispensationally disciplined by the Lord during the millennial kingdom and will ,iss the divine blessings in that age."
23 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipJust this minute Im reading a passage in Revelation and it seems to apply to you:
We were talking about the erasing on a Christian's name from the book of life as written in [b]Revelation 3:5)
Continuing the Footnote in the Recovery Version
[My bolding and spacing]
"However, many of His chosen ones. after receiving His forgiveness, redemption, eternal life, divine life, etc., will not cooperate with His grace ...[text shortened]... the Lord during the millennial kingdom and will ,iss the divine blessings in that age."[/b]
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. (Revelation 22:8-9 KJV)
John was about to worship an angel and the angel warned him not to do that. You seem to take lightly the danger of worshiping men. Placing the teachings of men above that of Christ is worshiping men. You are not worshiping God.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Just this minute Im reading a passage in Revelation and it seems to apply to you:
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. (Revelation 22:8-9 KJV)
John was about to worship an angel and the angel warned him not to do that. You seem to take lightly the danger of worshiping men. Placing the teachings of men above that of Christ is worshiping men. You are not worshiping God.
You're switching subjects on me.
You had a verse about the erasing of a Christian's name from the book of life. I think you assumed that I had never read or contemplated that passage.
I did. And I have some more to write about.
As to this new complaint. Like our brother John, I WORSHIP JESUS Who is my God. My God is the MAN Jesus Christ. And I definitely .... definitely believe in the Three-One God, the Trinity; the Triune God.
John slipped there and one other place because the Revelation was too great for him to endure. He caved in and fell before the angel and was rebuked.
No problem.
I am not above rebuking. But from John's mistake, we can learn what not to do.
Open up a thread on Hebrews chapter 10 why don't you ? I would like to deal specifically with your interpretation of Hebrews chapter 10.
23 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipDont mistake my silence for agreement at all. I read what you said and I disagree, I will take what Christ said the way he said it. I will not add your interpretation to it.
[quote] Just this minute Im reading a passage in Revelation and it seems to apply to you:
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and ...[text shortened]... t you ? I would like to deal specifically with your interpretation of [b]Hebrews chapter 10.[/b]
Christ said that to those who overcome, he will NOT BLOT OUT THEIR NAME. He referred to some who failed or who did not live righteously. It is clear that their names are blotted out of the book of life.
The story is the same for all 7 churches. Those who overcome will receive eternal life. Other Christians in these churches will have their names removed.
I would not be discussing Hebrews 10. If you want to do it the right way, I might be intersted. The right way is to gather from all the teachings of Christ and the Apostles ALL THE WARNINGS, similar to Heb 10 and discuss the all together.
If you approach ti any other way then it is clear that your purpose is to deceive.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Dont mistake my silence for agreement at all. I read what you said and I disagree, I will take what Christ said the way he said it. I will not add your interpretation to it.
You prefer your own interpretation. And that is that John 10:27,28 is not true. Instead I think you interpret that Revelation 3:5 makes it impossible that John 10:27,28 can be trusted.
I reserve the right to believe ALL that the Bible speaks.
I trust my Father who has testified to both John 10:27,28 and Rev. 3:5
Besides - the name of the tribe of Dan was temporarily erased from the list of the 12 tribes of Israel. Then it was included in again in the list of the twelve in reference to a period after the episode in which Dan was erased.
In the account of (Revelation 7:6) , as in 1 Chron. 2 - 9, the tribe of Dan was omitted because it its idolatry (Judges 18:30-31; 1 Kings 12:29-30; 2 Kings 10:29; comp. Gen. 49:17) . However, Dan will STILL be counted during the millennium (Ezekiel 48:1) because Jacob's blessing was upon him, so that through the Lord's salvation Dan will still be included as one of the tribes (Gen. 49:16-18).
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Christ said that to those who overcome, he will NOT BLOT OUT THEIR NAME. He referred to some who failed or who did not live righteously. It is clear that their names are blotted out of the book of life.
You are saying something like what I just said.
The difference is that I said this erasing is temporary.
I provided the example of how the name of the tribe of Dan was erased from the list of the twelve tribes, for their idolatry. But dropping of Dan was temporary.
God already showed us an example of dispensational erasing of a name and latter faithful to include it in promised blessings.
The story is the same for all 7 churches. Those who overcome will receive eternal life. Other Christians in these churches will have their names removed.
All the blessings promised to those who overcome in the the seven churches regard the millennial kingdom.
Any member of those seven churches is still a sheep in the unfailing hand of the Father / Son John 10:27,28) no matter what dispensational discipline or punishment they may receive.
Either you believe John 10:27,28 or you do not.
I would not be discussing Hebrews 10. If you want to do it the right way, I might be intersted. The right way is to gather from all the teachings of Christ and the Apostles ALL THE WARNINGS, similar to Heb 10 and discuss the all together.
I will probably examine Hebrews 10 verse by verse. And I will pose, perhaps, some questions which others can answer. If you're not interested, that's fine.
I think we are all seeking the truth.
And your presentation of Hebrews 10 I think is flawed.
And I will demonstrate to some readers why.
If you approach ti any other way then it is clear that your purpose is to deceive.
You joined this website on April the 4th, 2004, according to your profile. I am going to assume that you were Bible reader at that time.
If your interpretation of Hebrew 10:26 is right then some time after that date, when you sinned willfully you lost salvation (if you were ever a Christian).
This assumes that you never lost it before April 4, 2004. If you (not mistakenly) but deliberately and willfully sinned, you have not been a saved person ever since.
This is the logical conclusion of your own interpretation. And it is erroneous.
But according to your view if you have once ever sinned willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, you can never be saved again. One strike and you're out - According to YOUR interpretation.
23 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipI have never said this :Christ said that to those who overcome, he will NOT BLOT OUT THEIR NAME. He referred to some who failed or who did not live righteously. It is clear that their names are blotted out of the book of life.
You are saying something like what I just said.
The difference is that I said this erasing is temporary.
I provided the example o ...[text shortened]... uth, you can never be saved again. One strike and you're out - According to YOUR interpretation.
But according to your view if you have once ever sinned willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, you can never be saved again. One strike and you're out - According to YOUR interpretation.
Its either you are an idiot or you cannot read of both.