Originally posted by checkbaiterI was simply making the distinction between reason and our conscience. Our mind reasons in ways that often lead to evil. It’s our capacity for empathy, love and compassion that keeps us (hopefully) from doing evil.
The problem here is the "heart" cannot think. Biblically, the heart is the "seat of the personal life" which is in the mind.(nous) It's the real you, so to speak. It is where major decisions are made.
Which heart are you referring to?
Example: Hitler was a genius at persuading people to do his will, but I would say that he had a very bad heart.
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressIn heaven, there is no evil, right? So there is good without evil.
How could there be evil if there is no choice? How could there be good if there is no evil?
Is it not better for somebody to choose to love you and give there hearts to you freely, than for you to impose your will on them and force them to serve you?
Before Creation, there was just God. God is good, right? So there is good without evil.
You said we use the time on earth to come to understand God and become
perfect. In other words, we learn to purge evil from ourselves.
Are you saying we lose 'free will' when we go to heaven because we don't choose evil?
Are you saying that God doesn't have free will because He doesn't choose evil?
Of course not. And, similarly, a person interested in a perfect Creation would have
made Man aware of evil, but perfect such that he would never choose it.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioIn heaven, there is no evil, right? So there is good without evil.
In heaven, there is no evil, right? So there is good without evil.
Before Creation, there was just God. God is good, right? So there is good without evil.
You said we use the time on earth to come to understand God and become
perfect. In other words, we learn to purge evil from ourselves.
Are you saying we lose 'free will' when we go to heave ...[text shortened]... n would have
made Man aware of evil, but perfect such that he would never choose it.
Nemesio
As long as there is evil somewhere, good can be contrasted with it. Heaven can be contrasted with hell.
Before Creation, there was just God. God is good, right? So there is good without evil.
If I am correct in assuming that there was no evil before creation (and I should stress that this is just how I have come to make sense of it. I don‘t claim to have received my info from God himself), then God would not have been good or evil. There would have been nothing to contrast him with. This is why evil is necessary.
You said we use the time on earth to come to understand God and become
perfect. In other words, we learn to purge evil from ourselves.
Yes, this is what I believe.
Are you saying we lose 'free will' when we go to heaven because we don't choose evil?
Are you saying that God doesn't have free will because He doesn't choose evil?
Not at all. There are some who believe the Lucifer along with a third of the angels chose evil in heaven. They were cast out. I don’t believe that we ever loose free will. We just come to know better. We come to choose good. We loose our ignorance of the truth.
Evil is basically delusion that leads to suffering. Evil is usually a matter of sacrificing long term happiness for short term pleasure. There is only one truth and that is God, the ultimate source of all that is good and true. This is the only path that will give us lasting happiness. This is what everybody eventually realizes, and this is why we all eventually go back to God were we belong.
And, similarly, a person interested in a perfect Creation would have
made Man aware of evil, but perfect such that he would never choose it.
Yes, Nemesio, this is it! This is what I’ve been saying that God is creating through us, right now, this very moment, you and me, and everybody else, even marauder, a creation that is perfect in that it has free will and always chooses God, just like Jesus does. This is the ultimate goal. This is what perfection is. This is why we are here man! This is what we will all become someday. Halleluiah! 🙂😀😵😲😉😏
Originally posted by The Chess Express
As long as there is evil somewhere, good can be contrasted with it. Heaven can be contrasted with hell.
Well, then why couldn't have God created Hell and then just placed Man, with free will
and the brains to exercise it only for good in Heaven. There's your diachotomy, but
Man was born into perfection, aware of evil and suffering but never choosing it.
To create Man to suffer so he can be purged is perverse when you have the power to
do otherwise.
If I am correct in assuming that there was no evil before creation (and I should stress that this is just how I have come to make sense of it. I don‘t claim to have received my info from God himself), then God would not have been good or evil. There would have been nothing to contrast him with. This is why evil is necessary.
We do not agree on this point. Imagine, for a second, that there was only the color blue
in the world. It would still be blue even without the reds and yellows to contrast with it.
It still would reflect the same wavelengths of light.
Similarly, if people always choose to be honest, that doesn't mean that honesty doesn't
exist. Honesty does not require lying to be defined. If we abolish starvation in the world,
that doesn't mean that 'plenty' doesn't exist.
Think about it. Good does not require evil in order to exist. Good doesn't exist simply
to contrast itself against something. It has intrinsic and definable qualities totally independent
of evil.
I think to say that God was neither good nor evil is both bizarre and Scripturally untenable.
God clearly states that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil made a person similar to
God (in that knowledge), and that existed long before the Fall.
And, if you say that this is because the Angels already fell, then we already have evil in
the world which can be the foil for Man to be perfect and have free will and balance between
the two.
We agree on many of the further points, so I won't poke at them. Our premises which lead
to those points, however, are markedly different.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioWell, then why couldn't have God created Hell and then just placed Man, with free will and the brains to exercise it only for good in Heaven. There's your dichotomy, but
Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]As long as there is evil somewhere, good can be contrasted with it. Heaven can be contrasted with hell.
Well, then why couldn't have God created Hell and then just placed Man, with free will
and the brains to exercise it only for good in Heaven. There's your diachotomy, but
Man was born into perf ...[text shortened]... at them. Our premises which lead
to those points, however, are markedly different.
Nemesio[/b]
Man was born into perfection, aware of evil and suffering but never choosing it.
To create Man to suffer so he can be purged is perverse when you have the power to
do otherwise.
I think I understand your question. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re basically saying that God should have created us perfect as Jesus is right from the get go. Create a hell somewhere, and fill Heaven with perfect Christ like people. Spare us all the trial and error and cut to the chase.
Well, good question. Again, I’ll attempt to answer this according to my own understanding.
Lets assume for the moment that what I said about God being neither good nor evil before creation is true. As I pointed out, he would have needed to create evil to make himself good. Now, the bible basically says that we are gods. Yes, it does. Regardless of what the church says the scripture says this. Psalms mentions this, and so does the NT. If you don’t believe this I’ll provide the verses.
Lets stop and consider. Each one of us is a reflection of God. A part of God. This is our soul which is made in his image. This is the perfection within us that we must discover. This is what Jesus meant when he said the kingdom of Heaven is within us. God experiences all that we experience. If we experience evil, God experiences evil. Evil goes against God’s will, but in this way he can be defined as good.
What does this all mean? Evil has to exist to contrast good. God hates evil, and he experiences it through us. We are a part of God. The question is how could God have experienced evil if he never experienced it through us? Might we be the means that God uses to know evil?
This may sound perverse. I realize this. Understand that we suffer as much as we decide to suffer. If we live our lives the way God instructs us to, we save ourselves a lot of grief and hasten our trip back to him. I do believe that God does not want us to suffer, and those who have realized their divine nature, their inner perfection, may choose to not suffer at all. These are the saints.
To sum up, we are here for two reasons, 1. to verify evil and that God is good because he is not evil, 2. and to choose God to find the truth and end our needless suffering.
We do not agree on this point. Imagine, for a second, that there was only the color blue in the world. It would still be blue even without the reds and yellows to contrast with it. It still would reflect the same wavelengths of light.
Similarly, if people always choose to be honest, that doesn't mean that honesty doesn't
exist. Honesty does not require lying to be defined. If we abolish starvation in the world,
that doesn't mean that 'plenty' doesn't exist.
Think about it. Good does not require evil in order to exist. Good doesn't exist simply
to contrast itself against something. It has intrinsic and definable qualities totally independent of evil.
This starts to make more sense if you stick to just good and evil. The color blue has no opposite, and so it is a bad analogy.
Honesty is defined in terms of dishonesty. Honesty could not exist if there was no dishonesty. Nobody could tell the truth if there was no such thing as a lie. The truth would have no meaning, no opposite, it wouldn‘t exist. White chalk on a white chalk board cannot be seen. Chalk needs to be put on a blackboard in order to be seen.
Good can only exist if there is evil.
I think to say that God was neither good nor evil is both bizarre and Scripturally untenable. God clearly states that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil made a person similar to God (in that knowledge), and that existed long before the Fall.
And, if you say that this is because the Angels already fell, then we already have evil in the world which can be the foil for Man to be perfect and have free will and balance between the two.
It’s important to put this into context. God never tells Adam that he will be as God if he eats of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He tells Adam that he will die. It is the serpent, the devil, the father of all lies, who tells Adam that he will be as God if he eats from it.
The devil is death. Sin is death. Hell is death. This is verifiable in the scripture. God knew what eating of the tree would lead to. It would lead to people sinning as they do today. This is why Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. To sin against God, is to be dead. To be ignorant of our true divine nature is to be dead. If we are gods, it doesn’t seem like it, right? So we are dead in this way.
Anyway, you’re entitled to your opinion, and you make some good points that I can't fully explain. It's a difficult concept to grasp. I don’t fully grasp it either.
If the idea of evil contrasting good makes no sense to you, then reject it. Don’t listen to what I say. Better yet, look within yourself to find the answer. The scripture tells us that God will answer us if we ask. I believe this is true. Prayer and meditation are two of the best tools that God has given us to find the truth.
If nothing else, believe that we are here to find God and live your life accordingly. You can’t go wrong with this. The details will be filled in later when you meet God. Happy hunting.
Peace and God bless. 🙂
Originally posted by no1marauderI truly hope that you come to accept JESUS CHRIST as your Savior. Whatever questions that I cvan ask GOD. So can you and everyone else.
Why wait? Go ask God now. Since you seem to KNOW that Jesus is going to allow you into Heaven, you must have inside knowledge of all God's doings.
BTW, you do know what a "parable" is, don't you? Do you really think that Jesus was saying that the souls in Heaven will literally be able to yell down at the souls in Hell?
And I'll ask G ...[text shortened]... re all dead isn't a logical answer; I know I never got away with such an answer in high school.
Originally posted by blindfaith101I truly hope that some day you can think and reason for yourself and then you would try to figure out the logical inconsistancies in the Bible without someone else telling you what to think. Perhaps in the end you would wind up with a deep, well-reasoned faith rather than the mere parroting of what others have told you that you specialize in now. You're a very sad case, BF.
I truly hope that you come to accept JESUS CHRIST as your Savior. Whatever questions that I cvan ask GOD. So can you and everyone else.
Originally posted by checkbaiterPersonally I have issue's with Karma, since it invovles reincarnation.
[b]I would disagree with is that the lost pieces are lost forever.
Don't forget that "lost pieces" can be ressurected.
Personally, I think that Karma,
Personally I have issue's with Karma, since it invovles reincarnation. Ever see Ground Hog Day? Funny movie...LOL...but not biblical.🙂[/b]
I can imagine. The church doesn’t embrace the idea of reincarnation. It does explain your point though.
If a person is good in one life, but dies before he can be properly rewarded as we all know good people do sometimes, he may be reincarnated back with wealth and power. If such a person is corrupted by wealth and power as we know people can be, then he becomes a prosperous evil person.
Now suppose this person dies without being properly punished here on earth. Lets say he is now reborn severely handicapped, or perhaps in a third world country in extreme poverty. This would be the consequences of the actions of his previous life. It also explains why some of us are born under such horrendous conditions.
Rev 3:12 “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:..."
This is one place were I believe the Bible talks about reincarnation. In my opinion, Jesus is saying here that if we overcome our delusion and sin, we will not have to return. We will be able to stay in Heaven where we belong.
Just an alternative theory to fill in the gaps. Accept it or reject it.
Originally posted by no1marauderThe truth of the matter is this. Until that great day of Judgement, I know that I am right and you hope I am wrong. The point of going on and on about THE WORD OF GOD. Is hurting the unbelievers more than the Believers. If you and others were 100% sure of your stance, this would be a cakewalk for you. The simplicity of it is this. Speaking about THE WORD OF GOD, and doing all that CHRIST said to do, is one of the sweetest part of being saved. Those of us that believe, we may not believe as one as we should. We do though Believe in the message that JESUS CHRIST taught and the Salvation that comes with it.
I truly hope that some day you can think and reason for yourself and then you would try to figure out the logical inconsistancies in the Bible without someone else telling you what to think. Perhaps in the end you would wind up with a deep, well-reasoned faith rather than the mere parroting of what others have told you that you specialize in now. You're a very sad case, BF.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
I think I understand your question. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re basically saying that God should have created us perfect as Jesus is right from the get go. Create a hell somewhere, and fill Heaven with perfect Christ like people. Spare us all the trial and error and cut to the chase.
If things are designed in heaven according to your model: yes, this is a logical objection.
Now, the bible basically says that we are gods. Yes, it does. Regardless of what the church says the scripture says this. Psalms mentions this, and so does the NT. If you don’t believe this I’ll provide the verses.
With you so far.
Lets stop and consider. Each one of us is a reflection of God. A part of God. This is our soul which is made in his image.
So far so good.
This is the perfection within us that we must discover.
Here is the problem. Why must we discover it? Why must we undergo all
manner of trial and tribulation in order to know God? Why must we suffer?
Why isn't the knowledge that trial, tribulation, and suffering exist sufficient?
What does this all mean? Evil has to exist to contrast good. God hates evil, and he experiences it through us. We are a part of God. The question is how could God have experienced evil if he never experienced it through us? Might we be the means that God uses to know evil?
God is a masochist? God created Creation so that He could experience pain and
suffering?
This may sound perverse. I realize this.
Yes.
Understand that we suffer as much as we decide to suffer.
Wrong. Cancer makes us suffer. We don't decide to get it. Car accidents make us
suffer. We don't decide who blows a stop sign and creams us. Tidal waves and
earthquakes make us suffer. We don't decide to be in the wrong place at the wrong
time.
If your argument is that 'suffering builds character,' then God is a pervert, because
He has it in His capacity to build character within us without all the pain, to make us
knowledgable about suffering without having experienced it.
If we live our lives the way God instructs us to, we save ourselves a lot of grief and hasten our trip back to him. I do believe that God does not want us to suffer, and those who have realized their divine nature, their inner perfection, may choose to not suffer at all. These are the saints.
Could you name a saint or two so that I can examine this reasoning? The vast majority of the
people I can think of who are canonized as saints suffered a great deal.
This starts to make more sense if you stick to just good and evil. The color blue has no opposite, and so it is a bad analogy.
The opposite of blue is orange (red and yellow make orange). But, yes, it's much easier
when dealing with terms with diametric opposites. Let's move away from blue.
Honesty is defined in terms of dishonesty. Honesty could not exist if there was no dishonesty. Nobody could tell the truth if there was no such thing as a lie. The truth would have no meaning, no opposite, it wouldn‘t exist. White chalk on a white chalk board cannot be seen. Chalk needs to be put on a blackboard in order to be seen.
Honesty can be defined in terms of dishonesty, but it doesn't require that dishonesty
exist. Honesty is the quality of being true. Think about math: The proposition '2+2 = 4' is
true (in a decimal system). I don't need to define all the things it isn't in order for it to be
true. We can fantasize without realizing the false things. Similarly, if I state 'I am male'
or 'I live in Pittsburgh,' the veracity of those statements does not hinge on whether you or
anyone else lies about their gender or where they live. Those statements will always be true.
Similarly, if I help an old lady cross the street, this act is good irrespective of how many
people don't help other old ladies. If everybody helped old ladies like I do, and nobody
shirked their 'boy scout duty,' it would still be good.
Let me ask you this: How much evil is required in order to define good? Let's stick with
honesty. Let's imagine that in the course of eternity, there are 100 statements, some of
which are true, some of which are lies. How many have to be lies in order to define
honesty? 1? 2? 10? 50?
Nemesio wrote:
God clearly states that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil made a person similar to God (in that knowledge), and that existed long before the Fall.
Chess Express wrote:
God never tells Adam that he will be as God if he eats of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He tells Adam that he will die. It is the serpent, the devil, the father of all lies, who tells Adam that he will be as God if he eats from it.
Genesis 3:22 -- Then the Lord God said: 'See! The man has become like one of us,
knowing what is good and what is bad! THerefore, he mst not be allowed to put out
his hand to take the fruit from the tree of lie also, and thus eat of it and live forever.'
In fact, the serpent told the truth that God hid from Man. (!!!)
Anyway, you’re entitled to your opinion, and you make some good points that I can't fully explain. It's a difficult concept to grasp. I don’t fully grasp it either.
I appreciate your honesty. I think part of the problem with grasping at this Truth is
that you are working from false premises which obscure your ability to wrestle with the
situation (e.g., Good cannot exist without evil).
If the idea of evil contrasting good makes no sense to you, then reject it. Don’t listen to what I say.
I, of course, submit the same advice to you. I am not trying to compel you to agree with
me. This is a discourse for our mutual advantage.
Better yet, look within yourself to find the answer. The scripture tells us that God will answer us if we ask. I believe this is true. Prayer and meditation are two of the best tools that God has given us to find the truth.
I believe this is true as well, but I also believe that dialogue and challenge are a necessity
in that process. If you recall, Jesus refers to 'two or three gathered,' and I take this to mean
that He believed that revelation cannot occur in solitude. It must be experienced
amongst 'seekers' (for lack of a better term).
If I bring you closer to God, then great! If you bring me closer to God, then great! If we
both come to a mutual understanding of each other's positions, then great! There are no
losers here, except those (like blindfaith) who don't strive for dialogue, but condemn. It is
for the likes of him that I despair the most.
Nemesio
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Originally posted by The Chess ExpressReject it and then some....😉
[b]Personally I have issue's with Karma, since it invovles reincarnation.
I can imagine. The church doesn’t embrace the idea of reincarnation. It does explain your point though.
If a person is good in one life, but dies before he can be properly rewarded as we all know good people do sometimes, he may be reincarnated back with wealth and ...[text shortened]... aven where we belong.
Just an alternative theory to fill in the gaps. Accept it or reject it.[/b]
Originally posted by NemesioHere is the problem. Why must we discover it? Why must we undergo all
Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]I think I understand your question. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re basically saying that God should have created us perfect as Jesus is right from the get go. Create a hell somewhere, and fill Heaven with perfect Christ like people. Spare us all the trial and error and cut to the chase.
If things ...[text shortened]... rive for dialogue, but condemn. It is
for the likes of him that I despair the most.
Nemesio[/b]
manner of trial and tribulation in order to know God? Why must we suffer?
Why isn't the knowledge that trial, tribulation, and suffering exist sufficient?
Again, the same tuff question that I don’t have a fully satisfactory answer to.
Matt 18:7 “Woe unto the world because of offenses! For it must needs be that offenses come:but woe to that man by whom offense cometh!
Ask Jesus. Seriously, Jesus can give you a much better answer than I can. What is your explanation for it?
You mentioned that you are willing to believe that we are all a part of God inasmuch as we have a soul, and that soul is a reflection of God that is made in his image.
If we are really one with God, then our nature is divine. It follows then that we need to discard our human nature, our ignorance of our true self and discover our divine nature.
Since we can both agree on this premise, lets try to work from it. Perhaps somehow we can come up with a plausible explanation that we both can agree on.
Why, you ask. Why go through the suffering. The best answer that I have come up with is that evil defines good. Here is your point of view on this.
Honesty can be defined in terms of dishonesty, but it doesn't require that dishonesty
exist. Honesty is the quality of being true. Think about math: The proposition '2+2 = 4' is
true (in a decimal system). I don't need to define all the things it isn't in order for it to be
true. We can fantasize without realizing the false things. Similarly, if I state 'I am male'
or 'I live in Pittsburgh,' the veracity of those statements does not hinge on whether you or
anyone else lies about their gender or where they live. Those statements will always be true.
Similarly, if I help an old lady cross the street, this act is good irrespective of how many
people don't help other old ladies. If everybody helped old ladies like I do, and nobody
shirked their 'boy scout duty,' it would still be good.
You suggest that one opposite may exist without the other. I say that this is not possible, so lets try to work through it.
Before creation, there was nothing except God. No good, no evil, no old ladies, nobody to help her across the road, no math, no truth, no lies, nothing. Creation did not exist. Does this sound like much fun to you? Can you blame God for wanting more? God realized that it was necessary for creation to exist.
With creation comes polarities. Good and evil, black and white, hot and cold, north and south, etc. This is just the way it is all throughout creation. Everywhere things are based off of opposites. If you ask why God made it this way, I ask how could he have made it any other way?
4 would not equal 2+2 if 2 didn’t exist. 4 would not exist. It would not be good to help an old lady across the street if it was impossible not to. Without the polarities, nothing makes sense. Nothing can really exist.
If we can agree on this, then my version of things starts to make some sense. If you don’t agree with this, then you won’t be able to accept my explanation.
I’ve noticed that you often condemn things as being false premises. Personally, I feel that these concepts are probably above both our heads for the time being, so it may be a little premature to dismiss it out of hand.
Anyway, my point is that God made creation to give himself meaning. With creation comes polarities, and God made himself into us to experience these polarities.
God doesn’t like to suffer anymore than we do. It is not God’s will that we suffer. This comes from free will.
When we suffer, God suffers. When we sin, God suffers. Think about all the billions of people that have existed. God suffers more than any of us, and yet we blame him for our own senselessness.
You say that this is perverse and this makes him a masochist. You miss the point. God has told us how to live. If people followed their religions the trouble would be greatly reduced.
God would rather suffer along with us through all the trouble that we cause, and pull us through it, all because he doesn’t want to be a dictator with a bunch of slaves. This is how great he is. He gives us free will.
If it takes somebody a million years to learn, what is this in comparison to eternity? God has figured out the score, and he knows that it is worth it. If it wasn’t, he wouldn’t be doing it this way.
Keep in mind that none of this would be happening if we did Gods will. So perhaps we are the perverse masochists.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
Understand that we suffer as much as we decide to suffer.
Wrong. Cancer makes us suffer. We don't decide to get it. Car accidents make us
suffer. We don't decide who blows a stop sign and creams us. Tidal waves and
earthquakes make us suffer. We don't decide to be in the wrong place at the wrong
time.
Perhaps you are wrong about this. Perhaps we do decide these things.
John 5:14 “Afterwards, Jesus findeth him in the temple and said unto him: Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.”
This is what Jesus said to a man who he had cured of a disease. He cured him of the disease by forgiving him his sin. Perhaps we decide to have bad things happen to us when we sin, and God suffers through it along with us. Reap what you sow.
When things are going great, God gets forgotten. When things are hard, everybody prays. Perhaps this is why suffering is necessary for us to go back to God. If the world was perfect, who would care?
Originally posted by The Chess Express
If we live our lives the way God instructs us to, we save ourselves a lot of grief and hasten our trip back to him. I do believe that God does not want us to suffer, and those who have realized their divine nature, their inner perfection, may choose to not suffer at all. These are the saints.
Could you name a saint or two so that I can examine this reasoning? The vast majority of the people I can think of who are canonized as saints suffered a great deal.
They would surely have suffered more if they had not found God and become saints. Jesus had the power to defeat the whole Roman army. He didn’t. He let them crucify him for us. Perhaps some of the saints who suffer do so on behalf of their followers as well. This is between them and God, so you’ll have to ask them or God.
Let me ask you this: How much evil is required in order to define good? Let's stick with honesty. Let's imagine that in the course of eternity, there are 100 statements, some of which are true, some of which are lies. How many have to be lies in order to define
honesty? 1? 2? 10? 50?
Again, ask God. I don’t dish out people’s karma, and I don‘t keep score.
Genesis 3:22 -- Then the Lord God said: 'See The man has become like one of us,
knowing what is good and what is bad Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out
his hand to take the fruit from the tree of lie also, and thus eat of it and live forever.'
Well, If God becomes us, then this would still hold true. It is believed that we are the decedents of Adam and Eve, and so they found themselves in the same position that we are in now.
I am not trying to compel you to agree with
me. This is a discourse for our mutual advantage.
Great, then it is worth our time.
I also believe that dialogue and challenge are a necessity in that process. If you recall, Jesus refers to 'two or three gathered,' and I take this to mean that He believed that revelation cannot occur in solitude. It must be experienced amongst 'seekers' (for lack of a better term).
I’m not so sure about this. Jesus tells his disciples to go pray in their closet where nobody can see them.
Matt 6:6 “But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut the door, pray to thy father which is in secret; and thy father, which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.”
Debating only takes us so far. The scripture only takes us so far. Church only takes us so far. It’s the praying/meditating part that is important.
When Jesus referred to two or more in his name, my guess is he meant that they were praying together, not debating.
If I bring you closer to God, then great! If you bring me closer to God, then great! If we both come to a mutual understanding of each other's positions, then great!
It would be nice if this is the outcome.
There are no losers here, except those (like blindfaith) who don't strive for dialogue, but condemn. It is for the likes of him that I despair the most.
I don’t agree with BF’s interpretation either. I‘ve had my share of disagreements with him as most people know; but I don’t think that he’s a sad case. I commend him for his devotion to God if not for his rhetoric.
If you condemn somebody for wanting to know God, but not getting it right, unless you have a perfect understanding of God yourself, you’re giving God lots of ground to condemn you in the same way.
Jesus: “For whatever yee mete, so shall be measured unto you.” (paraphrased)
Let’s face it, if a perfect understanding of the divine was required to enter Heaven, we’d all go to hell.
To me, the sad cases are those who have no interest in God whatsoever, and go around belittling those who are trying to find God but don’t share their views. This does not describe BF.