Sans Dieu Rien

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'

and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way'"

-C.S. Lewis.


RJ, you accurately elaborate Lewis' point of view, which he arrived at having started as a staunch unbeliever.

gb[/b]

...and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way'"
From which we conclude "God" works at Burger King

- but Burger King fries are crap
- much better is to work where the fries are good (like McDonalds)
- "God" doesn't choose this
- this contradicts the so called perfection of "God"

Hence "God" doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]...and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way'"
From which we conclude "God" works at Burger King

- but Burger King fries are crap
- much better is to work where the fries are good (like McDonalds)
- "God" doesn't choose this
- this contradicts the so called perfection of "God"

Hence "God" doesn't exist.[/b]

We have proof positive now. For my wife agrees that McDonald's fries
are better than those from Burger King. But she says Wendy's are
even better and my wife knows best.

Originally posted by LemonJello

In your opinion, is God metaphysically necessary? And if you think so, why do you think so?

Appreciate your often posed debater's technique question, LemonJello (my favorite is lime).

Please restate it in direct street language with a few sentences made of transparent words.

gb (aka, LimeJello)

😉

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Appreciate your often posed debater's technique question, LemonJello (my favorite is lime).

Please restate it in direct street language with a few sentences made of transparent words.

gb (aka, LimeJello)

😉

Do you like Key Lime Pie?

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/emeril-lagasse/key-lime-pie-recipe/index.html

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Appreciate your often posed debater's technique question, LemonJello (my favorite is lime).

Please restate it in direct street language with a few sentences made of transparent words.

gb (aka, LimeJello)

😉

Do you think we can conceive of God's non-existence? Do you think there are possible worlds wherein God does not exist?

Originally posted by LemonJello
Do you think we can conceive of God's non-existence? Do you think there are possible worlds wherein God does not exist?

Not possible.

All attempts (thus far) at logical proofs of theism fail, including the one that appears to be encapsulated in the opening post. I suspect that there are no such proofs that can stand. Most of them have been thoroughly deconstructed on here at one time or another over the years. (Wow, I’ve been here nearly 8 years now!)

That, in itself, does not render all theisms absurd. I suspect (even though I am a nondualist) that a coherent theism can be articulated, but that it requires significant moves away from such things as the O-O-O abstraction and the supernaturalism (extra-naturalism) that so many theists are committed to. I think that St. Gregory of Nyssa was after that—but I have not yet clearly understood his analogy of the diastema (“gap” or “space”, apparently the pause between musical notes; Gregory was a musician I think), which at least one Orthodox author said was his alternative to the (later) natural/supernatural divide that was proffered especially by Aquinas. I am not sure if Gregory understood that diastema ontologically or epistemologically. Gregory does seem to have pushed the panentheistic envelope quite far for his day.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Not possible.

So there are no possible worlds wherein God does not exist? Do you have some reasons why you think this?

Originally posted by vistesd
All attempts (thus far) at logical proofs of theism fail, including the one that appears to be encapsulated in the opening post. I suspect that there are no such proofs that can stand. Most of them have been thoroughly deconstructed on here at one time or another over the years. (Wow, I’ve been here nearly 8 years now!)

That, in itself, does not rende ...[text shortened]... lly. Gregory does seem to have pushed the pan[b]entheistic envelope quite far for his day.[/b]

Logical proofs of theism always fails when a person receiving the logic
lacks the required logical skills to understand the proofs.

Originally posted by LemonJello

#1 Do you think we can conceive of God's non-existence? #2 Do you think there are possible worlds wherein God does not exist?

#1 No. All human beings eventually reach the point of "god" consciousness. In pristine cultures a young person or teenager may look up at a towering tree with all encompassing limbs and branches or squinting attempt to sustain gaze on the radiant sun or lie in the grass and watch the parade of clouds create changing shapes as they traverse the horizon or peer out of a thatch roof bedroom window and upward on sleepless nights at the tapestry of the moon and stars... all the while printing impressions and recording unanswered questions within the rational chambers of a developing mind. Sooner or later the realization begins to dawn that maybe, just maybe there's someone bigger and stronger with more authority than his or her father.

Eventually the individual reaches a decision crossroads. Curiosity, wonderment and discovery eventuate in the person thinking or formulating these or similar words, "God or whatever or whoever you are if you're really up there somewhere (even though I'm unable to see you) I want to know you and be your friend". Alternatively, negative volition may rule and the individual may cynically conclude, "Ha. You may be real or maybe you're not. Either way I'm not interested. I'll just live my own life in my own way and try to be happy". In sophisticated industrialized societies the same scenario plays out with similar and/or different points of reference and at an even younger age. Summary: In my view it's normal to keep the door open to the possibility of conceiving of God's existence and abnormal (even catatonic) to resist the notion by barricading doors and boarding up windows lest a ray of light shine in.

#2) No. God created all things for His (at times seemingly inscrutable) purpose and pleasure. Speculation about aliens and space ships may provide grist for the mill of our imagination but it's a fool's mission to lose focus by majoring on minor unproductive things. If there are other worlds, so what. Planet earth is where the action is... the designated temporary home, playground and school room of human beings. Fact that earth is a tiny speck in the universe is irrelevant to the issue of God's existence. He governs it all.

Sorry for the long reply, LemonJello, but I was pressed for time. gb


🙂

Originally posted by RJHinds
Do you like Key Lime Pie?

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/emeril-lagasse/key-lime-pie-recipe/index.html

One of my favorites. Thanks for the recipe.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Logical proofs of theism always fails when a person receiving the logic
lacks the required logical skills to understand the proofs.

No, he is right, there is no way to prove the existence of any god, especially a christian one. But heck, knock yourself out trying 🙂

Originally posted by karoly aczel
No, he is right, there is no way to prove the existence of any god, especially a christian one. But heck, knock yourself out trying 🙂

No I am not interested in proving God. He has already proven Himself.

Originally posted by RJHinds
No I am not interested in proving God. He has already proven Himself.

How so? By getting men to write the bible for "Him"?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
How so? By getting men to write the bible for "Him"?

By what He has made.