Science Negates All of Abrahamic Religions

@pianoman1 said
It’s interesting you say that.
What do you think is the cause of ‘the current state of man on this planet’?

The "seven deadly sins" is a starting list of causes.

Pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath, and sloth.

These are responsible for untold human suffering down through the ages.

@suzianne said
The "seven deadly sins" is a starting list of causes.

Pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath, and sloth.

These are responsible for untold human suffering down through the ages.

Correct!

Next: why do we need a God to deliver us from them? (I believe they do not even appear, as you state them, in any biblical text.)

Each person has to look into himself and cleanse himself of these negative attitudes. This involves rigorous spiritual training and meditation. Not an external God, according to my philosophy.

Please do not think I am belittling any person who chooses to follow the Christian God’s teaching, suzianne. You seem to me a highly thoughtful and perceptive commentator (unlike many on this site) and you will know that we all choose our own path for complex genetic, sociological and pathological reasons.

@pianoman1 said

Next: why do we need a God to deliver us from them?

Because every human being is as evil as a baby rapist.

KellyJay; abridged.

@pianoman1 said
Correct!

Next: why do we need a God to deliver us from them? (I believe they do not even appear, as you state them, in any biblical text.)

Each person has to look into himself and cleanse himself of these negative attitudes. This involves rigorous spiritual training and meditation. Not an external God, according to my philosophy.

Please do not think I am belittling ...[text shortened]... ill know that we all choose our own path for complex genetic, sociological and pathological reasons.

Good question.

I'll tackle this after work this morning. I have some opinions.

@suzianne said
The "seven deadly sins" is a starting list of causes.

Pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath, and sloth.

These are responsible for untold human suffering down through the ages.

You could add an eighth: willful stupidity.

@pianoman1 said
Correct!

Next: why do we need a God to deliver us from them? (I believe they do not even appear, as you state them, in any biblical text.)

Each person has to look into himself and cleanse himself of these negative attitudes. This involves rigorous spiritual training and meditation. Not an external God, according to my philosophy.

Please do not think I am belittling ...[text shortened]... ill know that we all choose our own path for complex genetic, sociological and pathological reasons.

Yes, If people took it upon themselves to correct behavior, everything would be peachy. The problem is that people don't do that. People will paradoxically take great pains to be able to continue the same behaviors that don't help them or their society. Oh, some do, no doubt of that. But far too few. Enough so that society kinda limps along, not quite crashing and burning, even though things can get dicey occasionally. That's when you see sweeping changes of attitude.

But that's not really even what I mean. Yes, enough people can and do change their behavior via "rigorous spiritual training and meditation" so that the wheels never quite come off of society's vehicle. But most really don't, and they hurt others in the process, even to the point of causing some groups of people grievous harm over long periods of time. This is the good that God can do in the here and now. Religious people find strength in the scriptural promises of God to overcome adversity, to keep going in times of trouble. The Bible does have power to sustain weary peoples. It's not that these people need an outside source to steel themselves against life's slings and arrows, but it is a real source of strength for people. Look to the writings and speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr. during the fight for civil rights in America. He spoke of hope, and a time when all people would come together. This sustains the weary, the downtrodden, those who might otherwise surrender to their oppressors. Christians know God is stronger than them and He will sustain them through bad times. I know you might claim that is just a crutch, but it is true. I think this is what got the Jews through WW2 as a people. They stood firm in their beliefs in the face of overwhelming destruction.

@suzianne said
Yes, If people took it upon themselves to correct behavior, everything would be peachy. The problem is that people don't do that. People will paradoxically take great pains to be able to continue the same behaviors that don't help them or their society. Oh, some do, no doubt of that. But far too few. Enough so that society kinda limps along, not quite crashing and burni ...[text shortened]... through WW2 as a people. They stood firm in their beliefs in the face of overwhelming destruction.

As usual a sensitive response. What I deduce from it is that the Bible (a beautifully written book in my view - with the exception of Leviticus) written by Moses and a host of other ‘prophets’, is a sort of handbook to reference when facing adversity. On more shaky ground you will probably say that these authors were moved by The Holy Spirit and so their words are a direct message from God. My agnostic nature has a problem with this. In my view a belief in God is unnecessary in this process. By all means reference the Bible, written by wise gurus, for guidance and help in subduing the deadly sins, but why complicate this with a supernatural deity of questionable morality?

@pianoman1 said
why do we need a God to deliver us from them?

People "need" God because they have trouble coming to terms with the fact that death is the end. The notion that you are "delivered from sin" ~ by your beliefs about youself and about God ~ is simply a kind of psychological scaffolding erected around the aspiration for immortality.

@fmf said
People "need" God because they have trouble coming to terms with the fact that death is the end. The notion that you are "delivered from sin" ~ by your beliefs about youself and about God ~ is simply a kind of psychological scaffolding erected around the aspiration for immortality.

So true!

@fmf said
People "need" God because they have trouble coming to terms with the fact that death is the end. The notion that you are "delivered from sin" ~ by your beliefs about youself and about God ~ is simply a kind of psychological scaffolding erected around the aspiration for immortality.

@christians

If there were no personal immortality and no promise of personal immortality, would you still believe all the rest of it? If God appeared to you, and there could be absolutely no doubt it was really God, and He said to you directly and personally, "I'm sorry, <your name here>, but there's no afterlife for you. When you die, you stay dead, forever. But I still want you to follow the Ten Commandments." Would you do that?

Simple question. Do I hear any answers?

@fmf said
People "need" God because they have trouble coming to terms with the fact that death is the end. The notion that you are "delivered from sin" ~ by your beliefs about youself and about God ~ is simply a kind of psychological scaffolding erected around the aspiration for immortality.

Isn't a screed like this really an example of the whole "sour grapes" philosophy?

@moonbus said
@christians

If there were no personal immortality and no promise of personal immortality, would you still believe all the rest of it? If God appeared to you, and there could be absolutely no doubt it was really God, and He said to you directly and personally, "I'm sorry, <your name here>, but there's no afterlife for you. When you die, you stay dead, forever. But I still w ...[text shortened]... t you to follow the Ten Commandments." Would you do that?

Simple question. Do I hear any answers?

I think "immortality" is really the wrong word to be using in this context. We all die. No one is immortal.

God approaching believers with a "Sorry, I was only joking about sending a Savior. I never had a son, and you are all fools for believing in him" doesn't really pass muster. That God is NOT my God, and you will never convince me that it is.

@moonbus said
@christians

If there were no personal immortality and no promise of personal immortality, would you still believe all the rest of it? If God appeared to you, and there could be absolutely no doubt it was really God, and He said to you directly and personally, "I'm sorry, <your name here>, but there's no afterlife for you. When you die, you stay dead, forever. But I still w ...[text shortened]... t you to follow the Ten Commandments." Would you do that?

Simple question. Do I hear any answers?

After giving this further thought, I'd have to say that, even minus an afterlife, I would still follow Jesus, given that I've always considered the Christian "way", i.e. following his preaching on how to live life in the here and now, to be a valuable calling which personally speaks to me.

@moonbus said
@christians

If there were no personal immortality and no promise of personal immortality, would you still believe all the rest of it? If God appeared to you, and there could be absolutely no doubt it was really God, and He said to you directly and personally, "I'm sorry, <your name here>, but there's no afterlife for you. When you die, you stay dead, forever. But I still w ...[text shortened]... t you to follow the Ten Commandments." Would you do that?

Simple question. Do I hear any answers?

So if there were no promise of judgment because God isn't real you don't think the things said in the 10 Commandments would matter, so stealing would be normal behavior, lusting after everything your neighbor has normal behavior, murder normal behavior, disrespecting one's parents normal behavior our true natures would emerge outside of the restraints of God? How is that any different with God when people still do those things, even believing in God the nature of man produces all manner of evil deeds. Righteousness is what is at stake not the thumb of God making us or else. Rewards for what we do in the next life are promised yes, and even that doesn't stop the nature of man to reject out of hand all the things of God.

@kellyjay said
So if there were no promise of judgment because God isn't real you don't think the things said in the 10 Commandments would matter, so stealing would be normal behavior, lusting after everything your neighbor has normal behavior, murder normal behavior, disrespecting one's parents normal behavior our true natures would emerge outside of the restraints of God? How is that an ...[text shortened]... mised yes, and even that doesn't stop the nature of man to reject out of hand all the things of God.

One of your better dodges KellyJay.