Originally posted by @sonshipI don't argue further with you as this is the spiritual forum.Tell me straight out - do you think it's crazy to think that once all land on earth was covered in waters and this was observed by man?
I don't think it is crazy if God revealed it to some seer prophetically. I believe in a world of man flooded in the time of Noah.
How we interpret the physical characteristics of this in terms of scie ...[text shortened]... of my life I have to trust the Bible.
Eventually every one of us will put our trust in someone.
If someone in the spiritual forum told me that the earth is flat because god created it that way, the I wouldn't argue because it's in his religion.
But if you say that "it's scientifically proven that..." and some religious nonsense, then I would say that you are a liar or an ignorant. I don't think that you've said that in this thread so I'll don't accuse you of that.
I've been to the Kebenekaise, the highest mountain in Sweden 2016 meters above sea level. I didn't see any seashells, none of them are even to be found there. Does that mean that the flood didn't reach the Laponia region in Sweden?
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Originally posted by @fabianfnas
I don't argue further with you as this is the spiritual forum.
If someone in the spiritual forum told me that the earth is flat because god created it that way, the I wouldn't argue because it's in his religion.
But if you say that "it's scientifically proven that..." and some religious nonsense, then I would say that you are a liar or an ignorant. I ...[text shortened]... even to be found there. Does that mean that the flood didn't reach the Laponia region in Sweden?
I don't argue further with you as this is the spiritual forum.
If someone in the spiritual forum told me that the earth is flat because god created it that way, the I wouldn't argue because it's in his religion.
I have no strong opinion about seashells on Mt. Everest.
And I'm sorry I made the sparse comment that I did that obvious thing to think was the land there was once under water.
You assumed that I was about to launch YEC arguments when I really wasn't.
So what can we salvage from this exchange?
Well, when I see the videos of the Tsunami that devastated the landscapes in Japan -
ie
I muse " It is not too hard to envision a devastating flood in the distant ancient time, which left only eight humans alive to start early civilization over again. "
Modern science is not making the Bible less believable to me.
Originally posted by @sonshipThere was once an event that could trigger the biblical story, and it was when the barrier of the Black Sea fell. Black Sea was flooded by the Mediterranean Sea water, the water level rose quite quickly. For the pre-biblical people of that time would be terrified in the sight of incoming water. Perhaps this was the true event that happened. Would be nice to know how this story wandered as a fable until it was written in the scrolls eventually collected to be the bible. Who knows.
I muse " It is not too hard to envision a devastating flood in the distant ancient time, which left only eight humans alive to start early civilization over again. "
Modern science is not making the Bible less believable to me.
But Noah and his family build an arc? No way. That's just a fable to explain why you should always obey god, or else...
Do you know how the snakes lost their legs? Well, once it was a talking snake that... Another fable.
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Originally posted by @fabianfnas
There was once an event that could trigger the biblical story, and it was when the barrier of the Black Sea fell.
All the mechanics of the situation we are not told.
Being distracted by these possible undiscussed mechanics can get some people to miss the point.
They come to the Bible expecting it to be a book to tickle all of their curiosity.
Perhaps had the account covered all the causes of the flood then instead of a few chapters it would be covered in hundreds of chapters.
We're experts at missing the point, God's point.
"Judged is judged."
"Saved is saved."
Black Sea was flooded by the Mediterranean Sea water, the water level rose quite quickly. For the pre-biblical people of that time would be terrified in the sight of incoming water. Perhaps this was the true event that happened.
I came to believe the Old Testament accounts through gaining confidence in Jesus Christ. Eventually I arrived at an attitude that His integrity was beyond questioning.
If Jesus conveyed the account of Noah's flood as He did, then it is good enough for me.
He's lesson drawn up on it is that similar times will occur in the final days before His second coming.
"For just as the days of Noah were, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day in which Noah entered into the ark.
And they did not know that judgment was coming until the flood came and took all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." (Matt. 24:37-39)
So it will be at the close of this age. People preoccupied even with legitimate things, will never know what hit them. And it will happen world-wide.
I just say a YouTube of an unprecidented earthquake in Japan of an unusual scale 9, lasting an extraordinary five minutes.
When I saw the water sprouting out of some of the cracks in the earth, it reminded me of what Genesis 7:11,12
"In the six hundred year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that very day all the springs of the great deep burst open, and the windows of heaven were opened.
And the rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights."
I can see great fishers in the earth gushing forth water to flood the then known world of man.
What came upon them they had never seen before. I believe that what is coming upon this world before the second coming of Christ, also the world has never seen before.
These things were written as examples for us to be warned by.
So Jesus Christ taught in this way. His honesty and wisdom is beyond scrutiny to me.
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Would be nice to know how this story wandered as a fable until it was written in the scrolls eventually collected to be the bible. Who knows.
That a theory that you have.
What I see is that the truest account is in the Bible the word of God.
Somewhat similar embellishments were probably handed down in tailored to meet colloquial and local cultural needs as mythology.
For the truest account of what actually happened, I would advise you to believe the Bible.
It may be more comforting to pay attention to the Epic of Gilgamesh.
But I don't want to go with what is more comfortable for my conscience.
I want to go with what the truth is even if give rise to repentance and turning to God.
But Noah and his family build an arc? No way. That's just a fable to explain why you should always obey god, or else...
I don't concur with your attitude.
The flood saved Noah from that generation.
The ark saved Noah from the judgment of the flood.
The ark is a preview and foreshadow of Jesus Christ.
The Apostle Peter likened the ordeal with the ark with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is uncanny that the day the ark rested on dry land just turned out to be the day on which Christ also rose from the dead.
I don't think it is a coincidence. I think it is by divine design.
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Do you know how the snakes lost their legs? Well, once it was a talking snake that... Another fable.
There are two instances of animals that spoke in the Bible. Many miracles in the Bible occur in sets of two. It is as if God is saying - "That's right. You heard Me right."
The talking serpent in Genesis is paired eventually with a speaking donkey in Numbers. This is like Joshua's long day is matched with Hezekial's sun dial shadow moving backwards.
Some of the more astounding miracles come at us in pairs of two - the first and then a latter repetition that seems to confirm the other.
Anyway, I now have no problem with a speaking serpent in Genesis chapter three. And here is why:
God has the job to do of informing multiple cultures over multiple eras of human history of things crucial to understand about our origins. A talking animal everyone in history knows is not suppose to occur.
I believe this is God's way of informing mankind that our origins are not rooted in the natural but in the supernatural. And the greatest threat to our existence is not rooted in the natural but in a supernatural being.
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I do not mistake the Bible's simplicity to mean the Bible's naivete.
Surely, the man writing, Moses, who detailed the dimensions of the tabernacle with great technical precision, also knew that a talking snake is outside the bounds of typical human experience.
Moses was faithful to write both. The astounding matter of a speaking snake that was being utilized by a great cosmic enemy and the sophisticated technicalities of the tabernacle.
Anyway, I believe that talking snake deceiving the first humans to depart from God's protection, is a way to inform us that our origins are based in the supernatural.
That is important for us human beings to know in understanding the work of the Son of God latter.
Originally posted by @sonshipThere is a real scientific problem with 8 people in recent history starting the human race over again: Genetic diversity. There is a problem with genetic diversity and humans but that problem is known to have happened about 200,000 odd years ago where modern humans were actually cut down to maybe 20 or so people total world population and in that time the genetic diversity has shown to be reasonable for that amount of time to have gone by and the human race in general has now been proven to have less genetic diversity than animals and that again is a problem for the flood tale. If humans have X diversity by coming down to around 20 people then the diversity index of animals coming from a single mating pair would be 1/10th X but in reality it is a hundred times MORE diverse in the animal kingdom than in humanity. That blows the world wide flood tale out of the water. There is no way the present animal genetic diversity could have come about in whatever time frame creationists put on the flood, say 5000 years. In that amount of time the genetic diversity would be seriously below human genetic diversity, and that has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that animal genetic diversity is way greater than humanity. There is no way that situation could have come about from a world wide flood.I don't argue further with you as this is the spiritual forum.
If someone in the spiritual forum told me that the earth is flat because god created it that way, the I wouldn't argue because it's in his religion.
I have no strong opinion about seashells on Mt. Everest.
And I'm sorry I made the sparse comment that I did that obvious ...[text shortened]... rly civilization over again. "
Modern science is not making the Bible less believable to me.
Also the very idea that a god would destroy 99.9999% of all animal life on Earth to kill a few thousand humans is just insane on the face of it. Like humanity would be so valuable as to cause a god to kill that much animal life in order to kill some bad humans is in fact just a human attempt to put humanity on a much much much higher platform than ANY animal life form.
I can't see a sane god doing that. And of course it never happened, just another human fairy tale designed to scare the hell out of the converts, a control method which has worked wonders for sure, which again just proves the gullibility of the human race to fall for such stunts.
Originally posted by @sonshipHow did Moses know everything? He just wrote the stories, the fables, down. He didn't know anything.
I do not mistake the Bible's simplicity to mean the Bible's naivete.
Surely, the man writing, [b]Moses, who detailed the dimensions of the tabernacle with great technical precision, also knew that a talking snake is outside the bounds of typical human experience.
Moses was faithful to write both. The astounding matter of a speaking sna ...[text shortened]... hat is important for us human beings to know in understanding the work of the Son of God latter.[/b]
Even we, today, suspect that Moses didn't write anything. Do you?
Originally posted by @sonshipI gave you one example of the stories told by the desert people campfires to amuse the audience. You gave me others examples. Thank you for that. Stories, nothing but stories.
Do you know how the snakes lost their legs? Well, once it was a talking snake that... Another fable.
There are two instances of animals that spoke in the Bible. Many miracles in the Bible occur in sets of two. It is as if God is saying - "That's right. You heard Me right."
The talking serpent in [b]Genesis is paired eventually ...[text shortened]... d the greatest threat to our existence is not rooted in the natural but in a supernatural being.[/b]
Originally posted by @fabianfnasHow do you know that ?
I gave you one example of the stories told by the desert people campfires to amuse the audience. You gave me others examples. Thank you for that. Stories, nothing but stories.
Originally posted by @sonshipAs we are in the spiritual forum, there is one answer that cannot be disputed:
How do you know that ?
Faith, dear sonship, faith!
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Faith means nothing if God is not faithful.
Faith is effective to the believer in Christ because Christ is faithful.
But if I recall, you were asserting that the Bible is full of fables.
Does this paragraph read to you like fable or like journalisticly researched history ?
" Now in the fifteenth year of the government of Tiberius Caesar, while Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, and Herod was tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip was tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene, during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John to son of Zachariah in the wilderness." (Luke 3:1,2)
Doesn't sound like "Once Upon a Time in a far off land" to me.
It sounds like a historian writing from detailed research.
Originally posted by @sonshipIt seems you are ignoring my post about genetics refuting the flood tale. There is no defense of that, genetic diversity of animals is far greater than the genetic diversity of humans yet in the flood tale there were 4 times as many humans to restart the human race as there was in the animal kindom. BTW, what did they feed the dinosaurs and how would they store enough food to keep all those animals fed for a whole month and how would 8 people have had the time, even working 24 hours a day, been able to do that job? Especially those bulky dinosaurs.
[b]Faith means nothing if God is not faithful.
Faith is effective to the believer in Christ because Christ is faithful.
But if I recall, you were asserting that the Bible is full of fables.
Does this paragraph read to you like fable or like journalisticly researched history ?
[quote] " Now in the fifteenth year of the ...[text shortened]... pon a Time in a far off land" to me.
It sounds like a historian writing from detailed research.